Sunday, October 25, 2009


There has been some buzz on the blog about pending civil legal action involving jilted depositors. Looks like, as usual, the blog was on to something.

A casual perusal of, and using a small variety of names and keywords commonly associated with the former Eclipse Aviation Corporation* reveals:

Case Number: D-202-CV-200911924
SM et al .v. Raburn V et al
Filing Date: 10/09/2009
(140 plaintiffs)
Which alleges:

Against defendants (with the results of an internet name search and their probable association with Eclipse):

Vern Raburn...(CEO)
Harold Poling...(BoD)
Kent Kresa...(BoD)
Al Mann...(BoD)
Edward Lundeen...(VP International Sales)
Roland Pieper...(CEO)
Mike McConnell...(President & GM)
Andrew Kamm...(VP Finance)
Mark Borseth...(CFO)
Margaret Billson...(COO)
Todd Fierro...(VP of manufacturing)
John Ricciardelli...(VP Product Support)
Andrew Vitka...(VP/Chief Accounting Officer)
Matthew Malfitano...(Director of sales)
Ricardo Conreras...(legal dept)

This case was filed on Oct 9th; a few days later several others were filed, with different plaintiffs:
Case Number: D-1329-CV-200902423
VF Manufacturing .v. Vern Raburn
Filing Date: 10/14/2009
"Breach of Contract"
(2 plaintiffs)

Case Number: D-101-CV-200903325
Opus et al .v. Vern Raburn et al
Court: Santa Fe District
Filing Date: 10/14/2009
"Contract Miscellaneous"
(79 plaintiffs)

Case Number: D-202-CV-200912018
Echo Leasing, et al .v. Raburn, V. et al
Filing Date: 10/14/2009
Other Damages
(45 plaintiffs)

While the first suit names (with 140 plaintiffs) features exclusively prominent figures, these last three have a mixture of prominent, and seemingly obscure (nothing came up on the internet in association with Eclipse) persons- I am sad to see difficulty in anyone's life- whether it be financial, health, family, or legal duress. Many involved with Eclipse have already suffered enough duress already. (I would suspect some were just "in the wrong place, at the wrong time").

On the other hand, to read the old Eclipse Press Releases, many of which were patently ludicrous, makes a person wonder, just who knew what- and when.

While it is distressing to contemplate how much cash Eclipse incinerated, WAY past the point of economic viability, at least to a) anyone who has studied the aviation industry for a modest amount of time, and/or b) who doesn't believe in Santa Claus anymore; it is worth pointing out that nobody seems to have profiteered from this misadventure. In fact, just the opposite- it seems there was every effort made to keep the corporation afloat. (And THAT is probably the crux of the legal action- some the desperate actions seem...well, shall we say, desperate).

There were undoubtedly lots of important issues on the line (figuratively, as well as literally); partially assembled aircraft, financial obligations to investors and tax payers, and jobs at Eclipse and at suppliers- so dedication to purpose is to be admired. These are all great things for the aviation community to rally around. But, there comes a point, where trying harder doesn't help if the business plan just isn't viable- at that point, trying harder just digs the hole deeper, and doesn't fill it in. Eclipse just keep digging deeper, and asked depositors (who did not have innate knowledge of the privately held company's finances) to do the same. The moral threshold seems to have been when "customers" were treated as de facto "investors". But that's probably not where the legal line is, as the purchase contracts were probably constructed to indemnify Eclipse in the event of financial difficulty. IANAL (I am not a lawyer, as Dave I would say), but the allegations seem to be related to issue of the depositors, as de facto investors, not being properly represented or informed by the Board of Directors and officers of the corporation./?/! (I think the depositors accepted the technical risk involved with the EA500, and EA400, but were perhaps unaware of the true financial risk ?).

So, it will be interesting to see how much of the Eclipse saga gets revealed "for the record". As one of aviation's favorite disruptive ex-CEOs once said, paraphrasing, "(I) would be happy to respond to critics who aren’t anonymous".

It looks like there will be a day in court, to do just that. (About 266 non-anonymous critics involved- not sure how much "happiness" is involved though, on anyone's part. Let's hope there is, somehow, an outcome that satisfies everyone- a pretty tall order, I fear. The best outcome might be just knowing what went on, and why).

(*For new readers, it is important to point out, this involves the former Eclipse Aviation Corporation, NOT the new Eclipse Aerospace Corporation).


Phil Bell said...

Well, many have anticipated the events developing in Albuquerque. I'm not sure how much "traction" the allegations will have- many long time observers of the old Eclipse Aircraft Corporation had formed personal opinions quite similiar to the allegations filed in court. There has been considerable contemplation of the term "fraud", as there is no such thing as criminally stupid (and insanity is a defense, not offense).

As IANAL (thanks, D.I.!), at first I didn't see much "constructive" about "fraud", but reading a bit, it turns out, "constructive fraud" is the term used in the filing of the complaint.

"Constructive fraud is a legal fiction used in the law to describe a situation where a person or entity gained an unfair advantage over another by deceitful, or unfair, methods. Intent does not need to be shown, as in the case of actual fraud.

"Some unfair methods may include not telling customers about defects in a product.

"The elements are:

"a duty owing by the party to be charged to the complaining party due to their relationshi;

"violation of that duty by the making of deceptive material misrepresentations of past or existing facts or remaining silent when a duty to speak exists;"

"reliance thereon by the complaining party;"

"injury to the complaining party as a proximate result thereof;"

"and the gaining of an advantage by the party to be charged at the expense of the complaining party."

The same doubtful appreciation of the term "civil" conspiracy at first crossed my IANAL-mind.

"there is an agreement between two or more natural persons to break the law at some time in the future or to achieve a lawful aim by unlawful means".

The question of what an "unlawful means" is will be interesting to see argued, and defended.

Some of the other terms, were pretty much staples of the "critics", such as
(although, not usually used together here);
Failure to oversee control,
Breach of Fiduciary Duties, and
Violations of the N.M. Unfair Practices Act (!!)

(?? Perhaps things could be better summed up as:
Unsportsman-Like Business Conduct !)

I'm not sure how far things will go- but like all things Eclipse, it makes for interesting viewing!

My thoughts go out to those involved, actually, to ALL those involved. (While I didn't agree with the means, perhaps the reasons were good- trying to preserve Eclipse, satisfy investors and customers, and provide for employees and suppliers).

(I am especially mindful of the people who were not involved with setting any of the policies, but yet seem to be swept up in the current issues).

baron95 said...

Allegations sound about right.

I hope there is enough insurance coverage to settle quickly.

Good thing that the cases are already consolidated.

gadfly said...

From the Albuquerque manufacturing grapevine:

A certain shop that has earned respect with those of us who have had business with them over the past two or more decades and who has done work for the “first” Eclipse reports: . . . it is highly unlikely that they will do anything, again, for the “second” Eclipse. Early on, they were smart enough to see what was coming, and refused to deliver product without payment. Their’s is a rare situation . . . having not lost money by doing business with “Eclipse”.

If this is any indication of future events, I would speculate that the “nuevo” Eclipse will not be doing any manufacturing in Albuquerque, using local suppliers, in the foreseeable future.

The high-tech manufacturing technology in Albuquerque is one of the best kept secrets on the planet. We “cut our teeth” on the requirements of the Atomic Energy Commission, and other related weapons technologies. What the “local” shops didn’t understand was the high-volume manufacturing of Southern California, and the other facilities in the “Mid West”, etc. But slowly, the local shops are realizing their very unique talents and capabilities. Eclipse looked “pretty good” to some, until they realized they were being “used and abused” . . . they cannot afford to make that mistake a second time. And if they survive, the local shops may yet discover their own potential and become a force to be noticed, in spite of the leader in the "White House" that is dedicated to our demise.

The other day, my #2 son purchased a couple “LED” flashlights for me at Costco, manufactured in Ontario, California . . . for about $30 for the two. The quality and performance was far beyond anything manufactured overseas. Although I’m sure that “Washington” will find a way to destroy this fine manufacturer, it shows that there is yet hope, for those of iron resolution, to fight against fraud, and subversive intent at every level.


(And Phil, despite your compliments, I’m not about to take on "writing a book". But thanks anyway! It wouldn’t be any fun. Like I told the preacher awhile back . . . he gets paid to be good . . . and those of us in the congregation have to be good for nothing. I enjoy being good for nothing . . . it simplifies the tax returns!)

gadfly said...

Confessions of a man on “pot”:

Yes, I confess . . . I get my best ideas while on “pot” . . . No, not that kind of pot, but literally “on the pot”. You see, every time I have that urgent call of nature, I head for the “pot”, and grab a book or magazine on the way.

It’s much like having some silly dream in the middle of the night . . . flying down a flight of stairs, and never quite landing on any of the steps. But while on “pot”, at least there is a selection of content to be studied. And no, this is really not a joke.

Phil suggested I write a book . . . and the title I would choose might be “While on pot” . . . or “Urgent Thinking, In Times of Distress” . . . well, you get the picture, far more than you wish. But let’s face it, there are those “certain times”, throughout the day, when our thoughts turn to moving experiences . . . and could well be put to “multi-tasking”.

So, what does a person do while on “pot”? . . . What does such a person read?

In the “rack”, I find some books including the subjects of “water color painting”, . . . a stack of the comics from the Albuquerque Journal (the “obits” are on the back side, but I rarely give them a glance . . . that’s my wife’s department, since she is a retired “RN” . . . I call that “Quality Control” reports). And I have a Bible . . . the “Berkeley Modern Language Version” because of its accurate and high level of use of the English language . . . an old full color soft-cover of “Oshkosh”, and maybe a couple other books . . . the present reading is an old 1950's book written at “junior high level” of the rancheros of early California . . . and I’m presently learning much about where I was born (Santa Ana), and the use of “brea” (from the tar-pits), to seal the roofs of early buildings down near present day “Olvera Street” in Los Angeles, or more correctly: El Pueblo de Nuestra Se├▒ora la Reina de los Angeles de Porci├║ncula or The Town of Our Lady the Queen of Angels of the Little Portion)

There is a verse somewhere that commands a person to “buy up the time, because the days are evil” . . . most of us could earn a college degree or two, by putting all this valuable “pot” time to good use. You think I’m kidding? . . . The truth is that humor is sometimes the best way to motivate people to get with the program. Between the time spent on the porcelain throne, and time spent under a warm shower . . . a person might find a vast opportunity to meditate and move on to great things.

So be it!


gadfly said...

Obits . . . “Obituary” . . . I mentioned it, briefly, in my last comments. And I made “light” of it, but aside from the subject at the moment, up our way . . . Friday morning, to be exact, an event happened that will result in an “obit” . . . obituary. An old man (80) . . . actually, not much older than myself, was on some errand, and about to turn up our road . . . three cars came together, and Grant Montgomery entered into eternity. There’s a major street in Albuquerque named in honor of his family . . . and he was known as a kind, generous man . . . owner of a local business, etc., etc.

For about four hours, our own road was blocked, with the “yellow tape” . . . and I only made my way into town by using a private side road. Some bouquets were present, attached to the traffic sign the next day. And I remember this man driving a “D8 Cat” about thirty years ago, leveling our back yard, and very gently pushing the dirt up against the back basement wall, so as not to damage our house.

How will you and I be remembered? . . . like “Grant Montgomery” as an honest man? . . . ready and willing . . . even eager to help others in times of need? . . . and more than that, “right with God”?

In an instant . . . as I came down Central this morning in the #1 lane (that’s the far left), a pickup truck was about to turn directly in front of me . . . the “Lexus” has an excellent horn . . . but I came within a few milliseconds of ending it all (for an “old guy”, I still have excellent reflexes). Life is extremely brief . . . and I don’t think it’s just my imagination, but folks . . . even in Albuquerque . . . seem to be on some sort of program of self destruction. It was not always thus.

As I look back at “Eclipse” . . . there is nothing about that program that made good sense, unless there was some underlying intent of “self destruction” . . . every move seemed bent on self destruction. Not one thing was in tune with good logical business acumen.

Strange, is it not?


(To quote another: Your mileage may vary . . . !)

baron95 said...

Gadfly, I checked the clearances... there is room for a Eclipse-size chemical "pot" in the wing-root of the 787.

So Boeing could install one there for you, and you could contemplate the composite issue at hand, in your "most creative" preferred setting.

My guess is that by now, Boeing is taking any "pot" they can to solve the problem.

How about it?

P.S. As for that flashlight being built in California or Calcutta, just remember that trade is not a zero sum game. When things are made in the most efficient locales and traded freely, humans usually prosper faster than when one every tribe insists on making all the items and refuses to sell or buy to/from others.

Would you REALLY want China to stop buying 777s and Microsoft Office, just to you have the pleasure of forbidding them to sell us flashlights and toys?

I think not.

gadfly said...

In the early days of our “Albuquerque experience” (1970 and following), we soon became aware of various inventive things . . . to get money from both the tourists traveling along old “US 66", and the newly discovered land, just west of the Rio Grande . . . “Rio Rancho”, “Volcano Cliffs”, etc. Those were the “glory days” . . . speculators and at least one US Senator making hay, like you wouldn’t believe. And so the New Yorkers’ came in droves. Well, in time, the New Yorkers’ and others did make it into something . . . but not exactly what Albuquerque had in mind . . . but there it is. Soon, after our arrival, the “rattle snakes at the top of Nine-Mile-Hill” was small potatoes . . . “Last chance for 45 cent per gallon gasoline, and a water bag” . . . to hang on your front bumper, compared to the vast sand landscape, with caterpillar plowed streets laid out to the west of Albuquerque. This was all quite a spectacle, viewed from the air, while flying in and out of ABQ to LAX and SAN, etc.

Of course the last chance of 45 cent per gallon gasoline was true . . . in Flagstaff, Arizona, it was probably about thirty nine cents per gallon.

“From a Distance” (to remember the song), Albuquerque looked like an ideal spot. And in thinking back, it still looks like an ideal spot. But the senator, who made so much money on the land deals, West of the Rio Grande, soon died of cancer, short of the legal action that would have surely taken place. Others, now, are waiting in line . . . even though they seem at the present to be oblivious to what awaits them.

There’s an old saying that “What goes around, comes around.” And the history of New Mexico, and Albuquerque, seems to bare that out. Time will tell . . . but if I were a gambling man (which I am definitely not), my money is on “time” (history, if you will) . . . and somehow, me thinks we don’t have long to wait for the outcome.


(Oh, forgive me . . . the subject was “Eclipse”, and the plan to darken the skies with cheap, light, jets . . . and transform the world of General Aviation. That’s the problem with a 72-year-old brain . . . back then, there wasn’t much of a warrantee on future performance . . . )

(And Baron . . . whether or not you missed the point, given a truly clean “playing field”, the US of A can clean the clock of any nation in the world. Few of us want some special favor . . . wherein would be the challenge, the “fun”?, etc. But given a level playing field, and halting this ridiculous “global warming by human activity”, etc., we can move ahead, providing great benefits for all concerned.)

(And, by the way, has anyone noticed the sun-activity, recently, and little things like “solar wind”, “sun spots”, Martian polar temperature changes, polar bear population increases, and all that Gore stuff? . . . Ah yes, may I introduce to a “realtor” with some land just a couple miles due east of “Datil, New Mexico’. It’s not yet for sale, but I’m sure that for the right price, a deal can be negotiated. And where, do you ask is “Datil”? . . . just home in on the Very Large Array radio telescopes (VLA) . . . and go “west” . . . they’re not far. A most perfect location to sell land to “aliens” from outer space.)

gadfly said...


A long time ago, speaking of a "pot", a low spot was observed in an early built building roof of a switching station, out on the far west side of Albuquerque. This became a major concern of some engineers at "Mountain Bell", the phone company. Some folks who didn't understand the basics of polyester resin, etc., "filled in" the low spot on the roof, with polyester resin filled with "popped" vermiculite. And it looked great. The problem was that those involved did not understand the heat generated by the "exotherm" reactions within the resin, and the thick section began to "cook", and created large cracks through the panels. A late summer rainstorm did the rest . . . pouring into the switching station, causing many thousands of dollars of damage . . . it was not a good day. Bottom line: People without a thorough understanding of fiber composites have no business making suggested alterations to the finished products, no matter how bad they look or perform. Just now, I wonder who is making the suggested fixes to the repairs on the stringers (at Boeing), and if they really understand what in the world they are doing.


(As a foot note: The above fiasco happened before I became the general manager of that company. In retrospect, I should have resigned before then . . . but then, what did I know, wanting to improve things, and make them right. It was an education, for sure.)

Orville said...

Geez Gad - you won't write a book, yet in 5 posts, you wrote 2,204 words (an approximate count according to Microsoft Word). :)

Love ya' man!

flydoc said...

there still is the matter of ownership of the WIP(sn261-292)
that is yet to be decided in court.
this case is against the new owners.

bill e. goat said...

While I would richly enjoy a book by Gadfly, I take consolation in the fact he gives us delightful "installments"!

Orville said...

Goat - I agree. The man should probably have his own website to share his delightful snippets. Not that I don't want them here - it would just be a great compilation if they were all together in one place.

OK, Gad - so no book. How about an e-book?

Sorry for the diversion - back to your regularly scheduled program.

uglytruth said...

As I said before....back in Aug 07 I was there just 3 days and found things out that didn't make any sense. All I was trying to do was to help build AC faster. Every turn was a roadblock. Everything was an excuse. It was impossible to make any progress. They had meetings about having meetings and acted like they wanted to “Git’er done” but to me their actions spoke louder than what they said. When I got to know my way around a little and presented my findings to some that I thought were on the right page and could help move things in a positive direction I was told I was not wanted back by..…purchasing.

I feel sorry for a lot of hard working people on the floor that are now jobless……but a majority of them in higher positions deserve to be out of work for “negligence of duty” or just not paying any attention to what was really going on.

Management was trying to hold the workers accountable but no one was holding them accountable. They had bad building procedures, bad fitting parts, deadlines, lack of tools and tooling, rivet problems, training problems and a whole list of out things.

Management’s job is to lead and support manufacturing…..they could not figure that out.

It was a lot like our economy… long can you take equity out of your house and play with the money until the bill comes due? How long did they think the fantasy could really go on without positive results?

Shane Price said...


Your comments about the 'management culture' at EAC ring true.

At the very least they are consistent with the many contacts I had during my time as blog custodian.

It's sometimes hard to judge a company by the vibe they emit, but I've said it before and I'll say it again:-

Even I, from 4,000nm away, could 'smell a rat' in ABQ.

It's not just how people were treated, and some were very badly abused, but also the constant poor quality marketing. The sort you get from those phone calls who are 'not making a sales call but'....

The real giveaway was how Vern abused his customers. I count at least three separate times when he went back to them trying to secure more money up front, using every trick in the book.

And some that he invented himself.

There was also the constant 'blame game', where suppliers were always at fault, especially if they had the temerity to seek monies due under contract.

It just didn't seem right, at the time...

As it happens, it turned out that doing a range of complex things badly was a recipe for disaster.

A multi billion dollar disaster. In fact this episode was the largest financial crater so far in GA, one which the financial markets won't be so quick to forget.

Or forgive.

Look at the damage caused to the 'air taxi' vision, or to the siren call of the VLJ, which is now rapidly becoming the 'entry level business jet'.

Lastly (for now) what about the taxpayers in Albaqurque, or those families who relocated there on the promise of work?

Too many victims, not enough benefits.


gadfly said...

Confessions of a story teller:

Entertainment can be better found in a book by Mark Twain. But the stories here are merely “tools”, to help grab your attention, and bring us back “on topic”, ie: “Aviation Critic & Enthusiast” . . . so the Eclipse fiasco is not repeated, nor the problems presently being revealed at Boeing. Eclipse attempted to please everyone, bolster the ego of the founder, and ended in failure on almost all fronts.

The problems echoed by “uglytruth” are merely symptoms of things gone wrong right from the “get-go”. So, we might wish to share our thoughts on how we would approach the design and manufacturing of a new product . . . a new machine . . . a new “very light jet”.

When I am approached to design and produce a new machine, I focus on the primary purpose, and build the ideas around that single target, making adjustments/compromises only to enhance that primary goal, or limited collection of requirements. So, let’s begin with a simple example, the design and manufacturing of an aircraft with the following priorities:

Aircraft to transport four people from point A to B, with basic comforts, safety and at reasonable speed, at minimum cost and maximum durability. If I can make it fun to fly, and look good, those are important. Later, in small increments, the “fancy” stuff can be added . . . but only after the basic requirements are fully met, and proven in service.

So, we make room and comfort for four people . . . coupled with safety. From that sacred envelope, we begin adding the other “options”, but never invade that primary envelope.

We don’t get sidetracked with unproven new technology, nor make unreasonable assumptions about computers and/or new alloys, etc. We stay “close to home” in our thinking, using our brains and simple logic in human behavior, and abilities.

The earlier “anecdotes” were the tools that I use to get into your minds, to draw you out, to add your inputs into a non-confrontational discussion . . . sharing our many experiences that contribute to better understanding of our common love . . . aviation in general, and aircraft in particular.


(Maybe you will find the water cold . . . like when I first began body surfing in Southern California . . . and getting rolled over in the surf a few times. But once I got the hang of getting on the leading edge of a four or six foot wave, I forgot the cold, and learned to love the taste of sand . . . well maybe not that . . . I just learned to keep my mouth shut at appropriate times, but even the taste of ocean water can be a pleasant experience. Come on in . . . you’ll forget the cold, and maybe add much to the discussion.)

gadfly said...

Sometimes we have to look ourselves in the mirror to get a good laugh. And I just now looked at my last contribution . . . and there it is “. . . things gone wrong right from the start”.

Many years ago, the famous author, James Thurber, wrote with tongue in cheek, "That building is a little bit big and pretty ugly."

A college professor told his class that in “English”, a double negative becomes a positive, but never does a double positive become a negative . . . and a student was heard to say, “Yeh!, Right!”

The point being that each of you, who contribute to this blog-site, or look in from time to time, have a vast collection of tools within your grasp . . . the English language . . . over 400,000 words at last count. Keep them sharp, in good condition . . . but unless you take them out and use them, they are of little value.

And as you use them, you gain increased skill . . . and, like painting, if no one else benefits, it gives you opportunity to examine your own thoughts from a perspective outside your own brain.

Do you have some “hare brained scheme”? (“brain of a rabbit”) . . . put it out there . . . look it over . . . let others take a shot at it . . . and maybe it will survive . . . maybe not . . . but don’t attack the “shooter”. Next time, you’ll come up with a better idea. Whoever said that “thinking” doesn’t have a price? But thinking is excellent exercise . . . and leads to better things. The muscle that God created between your own ears needs daily exercise, and reaps the greatest benefits of any part of your body. Combine that with your “gut”, and your soul and spirit . . . it’s amazing what can transpire.


(Take that earlier challenge . . . How might you come up with the design of a "very light jet"?, etc.. Solve a single problem . . . and share it . . . and let's see where it would lead. I venture that others, including myself, might be most interested in your thoughts.)

Dave said...

I wish them luck in their litigation, but I don't think it will do very much except for run up legal bills. Those who have the money (like Kresa) aren't going to be found liable while those without money (like Vern) wont have much money to hand over in the event of a judgment against them. It's not that I doubt the underlying allegations, it's just a matter of how likely any recovery is. On the other hand if you don't care about recovering a dime and just want to make Vern's life miserable, what you might be able to do is get a judgment against him and then notify the IRS that you are forgiving Vern's debt to you, which forgiven debt is taxable as it is treated as a form of income.

uglytruth said...

I don't know anything about designing an AC. That said I think Gadfly's idea has merit and those of us that don't know could learn a lot thru the debating.

1st Issue: Who's going to buy and fly a VLJ? What is a competive sustainable price range. What is the customer looking for? Safety?Style? Range? Load? Cost of maintance? Length of runway? Business use? 2 couples on a weekend getaway?

You have to design a product the customer wants....right?

julius said...

this case is against the new owners.

does this means that the chapter 7 cricumvents WIP parts and leaves them at a buyer until further notice?
Are there any examples?


gadfly said...

uglytruth . . . although you may think you have little to contribute, your comments while "down on the floor" reveal much, to those of us who have been challenged to produce machines/"jigs"/calibration fixtures/tools for production. A long, long time ago, I spent much time on the "floor" at Honeywell (Bluewater Road in Albuquerque), just observing, and talking with the "girls", who assembled the home thermostats. They didn't realize it, but as I asked "key questions", I was able to design precision assembly machines, calibration machines (so that when "Mrs. Houswife/Homemaker" goes over to the electronic thermostat, and pushes the temp up a couple degrees in the morning . . . it will respond to the exact temp programmed). . . and quite frankly, "safe machines" that will not "bite" the girls, as they lean over, while talking to their "neighbor" on the assembly line, and suffer a most embarrassing wound. Yes, it gets down to such basic issues, and this is not a joke.

On the one hand, my machines had to be so "transparent" that the operators, usually a lady, could rivet or calibrate her quota, hour by hour, without once giving my machines a second thought. On the other hand, I had to make my "transparent" machines so safe, that there was no way that a totally distracted "operator" could somehow be injured while performing her primary duty.

And yes . . . there are certain stories of earlier conditions, that are both humorous and yet quite tragic . . . depending on your point of view . . . but never humorous if you happen to be the victim of a bad machine design. (And you thought that a mammogram was a bad experience.)

There came a time when I could no longer spend the time, to visit with a new crew of engineers from the "Twin Cities" (Minneapolis-St. Paul), re-establish new relationships . . . and soon after, the entire operation moved to China.

In that time frame, I got involved with the vascular clip system, went through a couple balloon angioplasties (for myself . . . unscheduled), and years later a thing called a "quintuple bypass" . . . something that can upset the normal schedule of things . . . but it all worked out . . . at least we're working on it.

All this, to let you look behind the "green curtain", etc.

The "bean counters" won! . . . or at least they "think" they did.

But while it lasted (out at Honeywell) I was able by observing, and communicating with the folks down on the factory floor, to understand the problems, and come up with viable solutions.


(In those early days, we did some wonderful, and quick turn-a-round fixes. And we gave each of the "girls" on the line a simple little "Wirecut-EDM" stainless-steel butterfly. The "feelers" were the size of "straight pins", and extremely delicate. The ladies would put them inside their plastic personnel ID badge . . . and for a time, it appeared that the "butterfly" was a Honeywell logo. Great memories . . . but better yet, an education in solving real-life problems, on the factory floor.)

flydoc said...

the chapter 7 sale went through with the issue of who owns the WIP not being settled with the new owner responsible for the legal settlement.
I'm not a lawyer but I believe until this is settled new Eclipse cannot use the WIP for parts

gadfly said...

You folks that have had inside knowledge of Eclipse, please stick around. Your knowledge is important. Without violating any agreements, with the "former" Eclipse, you may very well add valuable information, and advice to future endeavors. Please do not underestimate the value of your opinions. Some of us . . . many of us, want you to share what you may, to better understand and lay the foundations for the next generations of general aviation.

Thank you in advance.


Shadow said...


Replying from the previous thread. Yes, Vern was still sporting the beard. I briefly saw him walking in the other direction--there were a few people in bewteen us, though. I had other pressing business to attend to at the time, so I could not turn around and give chase.

bill e. goat said...

"I could not turn around and give chase."

Wish I'd been there to help!!

gadfly said...

goat . . . you is a most funny man, with a sense of humor beyond compare. When are we going to do "lunch"? . . . we have so much in common.


Shane Price said...


Your a funny man, but very, very bold. The 'mob' that are pursuing poor old Vern don't need any more 'encouragement' from rabble rousers like you!


Yes, Vern was still sporting the beard.

Thought as much. I hear he's still living down ABQ way, which makes one wonder how he got to Florida.

Did he hitch a lift with one of his (few) remaining admirers?

Fly commercial, with the rest of us?

I ask this only since I'm told 'his' FPJ has been recovered by EAI. It was, as you know, only on 3 year loan from Roel, sorry, EAC....


Deep Blue said...

One would think this legal action compromises the new EAC, at least from a marketing perspective. If the lawsuits uncover and document flawed manufacturing, etc, it could ground the fleet, trigger FAA rulings, increase insurance pricing or otherwise restrict the aircraft's flight dispatch.

As for the old EAC Board escaping liability/prosecution, I wouldn't be so sure. These were aviation industry professionals, not "college professor" seat warmers on an arm's length advisory board. Most had extensive aerospace manufacturing experience; one was a banker.

At a Board meeting all any of them had to do was ask for the venture's working capital account, where it came from and how it was spent: accounting 101. As far as venture capital structure, a Board is usually even more tightly wound into securities law responsibility and there will probably be that issue at play here as well.

As for Vern, who knows what he may have done with company assets. All signs indicate that now, he seems troubled and let's hope not at risk for hurting himself. Extreme personalities can do extreme things when they're down.

As for the suppliers, no, they probably won't go near newco and what (again) about parts?

gadfly said...

The key word is “parts”, and convincing suppliers to attend a meeting . . . etc. And, no, we’re not talking about “Eclipse Aerospace” . . . but their competitor.

Shane Price said...

Boeing have (finally) announced the 'open' secret that North Charleston is to be the second, full 787 assembly site.

I sincerely hope that parallels with Vern's 'second assembly site' in Russia don't turn out to be true.

The only thing I clearly recall about Charleston is that it marked the beginning of the end for the Confederate States of America.

Or did I mean the end of the beginning? I'm getting confused in my dotage....

PS European stock markets tanked today. Again.

Shane Price said...

Deep Blue,

'Parts' is a very loose term.

I'm pretty sure P&W Canada will supply replacement engines (or parts thereof) to anyone who asks them nicely.

Will IS&S be quite so accommodating?


What do you think?

I'm pretty sure Hampsons are not going to be quick to respond. What about Fuji?

At the other end of the scale there are literally hundreds of small suppliers who may take a very jaundiced view of the FPJ going forward, if only because they've already been burned, in many cases quite badly.

But EAI claim that all of this is under control, and that they have a plan.

We shall see. I'd still love to know when they plan to start selling something. Heck, at this stage I'd be impressed if they just sold one E500, simply to show activity.

I count 9 for sale, by EAI themselves, on That's from a total of 28, one or two of which are 'fractional' sellers.

You also can't fail to notice that s/n 60 which is "... Not A Former DayJet Plane" (quoted direct from the ad) has still failed to move.

Despite being offered at a mere $850,000...

Maybe those of The Faithful who are determined to stick with their choice should chip in and buy it, if only to ensure parts remain available.

Just a thought...


bill e. goat said...

Hi Gadfly,
I hope we can do lunch sometime this year!

(Actually, I like to do lunch every day:)

gadfly said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gadfly said...


According to the recently submitted picture you must like “barbecue” . . . but there’s a local spot where the customers don’t need to bring their own kindling.


(Tar and feather sauce optional!)

Black Tulip said...


"The only thing I clearly recall about Charleston is that it marked the beginning of the end for the Confederate States of America."

Speaking for us Southerners, please understand that we signed a truce, not a surrender. So far we have abided by the terms.

BassMaster said...

Parts won't be and is not a major in keeping jets flying. I'd be interested in seeing the Ndt intervals that will be required well before the life limit. Ugly things will surface in the next couple years. Windshield frames to name just one. Let's wish newco the best as well as operators of higher cycle planes. The structure for 8psid is not there folks. Best wishes to all.

bill e. goat said...

Hi Shane,
"The 'mob' that are pursuing poor old Vern..."

I think given the choice of 266 plantiffs, with some pretty high power lawyers, Vern might just elect to take his chances with the torch-light mob:)

(Greg W. Chase, the attorney against Vern and the BoD).

bill e. goat said...

Re: parts
"Parts won't be and is not a major in keeping jets flying."

I donno- how many spare displays are floating around, and with what software loads? Lots of non-PMA'd items- I think NewCo, or just about anybody, could make a profit just doing the paperwork for spares.

I am a reluctant "convert" to the probablility that most suppliers will say NO to more involvement in the program- especially if there is not new production volumes to make it worth while (e.g., hundred(s) of shipsets per year, instead of 5-10.

Regarding the structure, I'm a modest believer, that it might hold up well- if the FAA gave it a 10K initial lifetime, I reckon they had reasonable confidence it would met that- and inspections over the coming years could extend that if no problems are found.

(On the other hand, if problems ARE found, NewCo will make a bundle repairing them, so they win either way- no warranty liability to cover, just hefty markup on engineering and shop time).

Perhaps a bigger question is- what will P&W do? Keep up support for 260 airplanes (or even fewer)? I suppose to protect their name, they will indeed continue to support the engines (maybe some fine print in the sales contract stipulating that?).

bill e. goat said...

Hi Gadfly,
Does the restaurant serve BBQ Weasel? (and "Wedge" fries?? :)

Yum Yum!!

Floating Cloud said...


I am taken aback by the restraint and compassion happening here – really lovely. After so much vinegar, it is so nice (and hopeful, B95 this is what you want, right?) to find a little bit of honey on the other side of things. I am one who also got burnt by the ghost of the Eclipse past (not monetarily), but now I wear my love like heaven...there is no more emotional pain at all, but everyone needs to be imaginative, and move forward. Old Eclipse brought down a lot of people both innocent and guilty. The universe has a way of working it out. I feel so privileged and grateful to be somehow among the best – and I am speaking of those here on this blog.


Seeing as I was both college and apprenticeship trained as an artist, art conservator, and textile specialist, I would love to have one of those Honeywell stainless-steel butterflies with straight-pin-like feelers made by a Wirecut – EDM. I looked it up. Do any still exist? Wow!

Floating Cloud

julius said...

bill e.goat,

(Greg W. Chase, the attorney against Vern and the BoD).

Chase seems to be a "medical" lawyer - was the wedge or RiP something like a medic for his victims or so-called customers?

But I think there is one result (include the WIP-parts): The total newco business based on EAC parts is in limbo!
Are there more than those parts which could be called or are even called WIP-parts?

A question to the more professionals (IANAL): Are there any cases where WIP-parts (which could be linked to a specific customer who had already payed something for "his parts") were sold or passed to the customer after a chapter 7 case?


RonRoe said...
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gadfly said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Beedriver said...

The rights to the Paris jet have been sold to a Florida corp

perhaps this will become a true personal jet if it is put back into production with the latest avionics and use the 610 or 615 engines?

flydoc said...

the WIP parts falls under the UCC-Uniform Commercial Code laws

Plastic_Planes said...

Shane said:
which makes one wonder how he got to Florida.

Did he hitch a lift with one of his (few) remaining admirers?

Fly commercial, with the rest of us?

I ask this only since I'm told 'his' FPJ has been recovered by EAI. It was, as you know, only on 3 year loan from Roel, sorry, EAC....

For those "in the know: Did Vern sell the "Sea Bass"?

Vern once owned a Turbo Commander in the early days of the "oldco"


airsafetyman said...

Piper just announced a major delay in the Piperjet until the first quarter of 2013. Deliveries were supposed to begin in the last quater of 2011. The delay comes about two weeks after the Chief Financial Officer was replaced by one hand-picked by the Brunei owners. Coincidence? I think not.

airsafetyman said...

Make that the SECOND quarter of 2013 for the revised initial Piperjet deliveries.

baron95 said...

Some light jet programs have serious funding problems. Some have serious technical problems. Some have serious market position problems. Some have serious company stability problems.

The PiperJet program has all of the above and then some. 2013 is 4 years from now. Is that believable?

Lets see...

The best in the industry (Cessna, Embraer) started serial deliveries approximately 2 years after flight of first conforming test article. Piper is not the best, nor as well funded. So my guess is that they'll need 3-4 years.

The best in the industry (again Cessna and Embraer) had flight of first entry jet conforming test article about 2 years after firming up design (to 85% or so) and issuing supplier contracts. Again, Piper is not the best, does not have the trust of suppliers to the same extent, so they will need about 3 years for that.

Sooo..... put it all together, and serial deliveries of the Piperjet are 6-or 7 years away, if all goes well. That is 2015-2016.

And that makes it academical anyway as Piper will be starved of money in short order. Diamond and Cirrus are likely to recover from their recent troubles and further decimate Piper's piston line up. The DJet will likely completely kill off the Meridian when it hits the market in 2 years or so.

Where will Piper find the money to fund the PiperJet for 6 years?

Even a Sultan has a limit of how much money they'll shove down the inlet of an ugly jet dream, right?

No good prospects for the PiperJet, I'm afraid.

airsafetyman said...

"And that makes it academical anyway as Piper will be starved of money in short order."

I think you are right. Had Piper improved the build quality of the Meridian and gone to Garmin avionics several years ago they might have had a chance. But nooooo, everything has to be built on the el cheapo, hence the Avidyne system. There is also a demand for a twin turboprop that Piper could have filled with an upgraded Cheyenne but the idiot managers destroyed the tooling. The Lycomings in the PA-46 Meridian and Matrix are unreliable boat anchors that should have been replaced by the FADEC Continental TSIO-550 years ago. Sadly, I think it is way too late to do anything. It's like watching a squirming insect impaled on a hat pin; it's not pretty.

bill e. goat said...

You're making me blush.

(That, or the jalapenos I had for supper, rather hot rascals).

I'm glad you have recovered from your Eclipse experience.

On the other hand, I hope Wedge and *especially* the Board of Directors are beginning to feel the "heat" themselves.

bill e. goat said...

I think many others were the first to declare Eclipse bankruptcy inevitable.

But I'll lay claim on the first cry of foul against the Board of Mis-Directors.

How they could sit and drool while playing with their ball and cups while Wedge pissed away $X.X B is beyond me. They collectively represent the perfect picture of abysmal, blithering, buffoonish indifference and apathy.

Perhaps they were used as stage pieces- certainly a wooded statue of Alfred E. Neuman would have provided equally helpful guidance.

Stage props, or stooges, no difference.

Or maybe there is- as stage props, they were willfully inactive and deliberately ineffective- as stooges, they were merely incompetent idiots.

It's hard to imagine a dimwit like Wedge playing puppetmaster to these high-rollers, so I suspect they elected to play the role of window dressing to lure other investment.

The aviation industry will be a lot better off without this group of posers.

bill e. goat said...

Hi BeeDriver,
Thanks for the neat link to the Paris Jet.

"Using a proven 6 seat design and revised engines could make the MS760 competitive across a wide range of user mission profiles...93% Common parts between 4 & 6 seat models."

I fear I must say, this advernture will probably have about the same probablity of success as, the 4-seat version of an Ercoupe.

(I must confess, I'm rather smitten -really!!- with it's rakish good looks, and swept tail, although a bit non-plused by the acquiecense to convention with what appears to be either flaps or agricultural spray bars- and no doubt, the inclusion of rudder pedals).

Proving there's more than one way to achieve one's ends...(or perhaps better put, to meet one's end). But talk about "commonality" between the 2-seat and 4-seat models!

(Although, in this case, I'd rather NOT think about what a six-seat version would look like...)

bill e. goat said...

Thoughts on the Piperjet (and, GA in general):

I don't know if they'll ever make a profit, but I think Piper can have the SEJ ready to go by mid-2013. There isn't much of a market, for anything, until 2012-ish, so I'd say coming on line with production in 2013 will work out okay.

If they have the funding. Seems like I heard Piper say $100M for R&D- sounds about right with some parts bin equipment. Probably about 250 airplanes to break even, maybe 60-70 per year or so? Interesting. One of the BIG things going for it, so to speak, is the BIG cabin, compared to the other SEJ competition.

baron95 said...

airsafetyman said...
I think you are right. Had Piper improved the build quality of the Meridian and gone to Garmin avionics several years ago they might have had a chance.
The Meridian has a fighting chance now with G1000 IF Piper does three things.

1 - For crying out loud, increase the Vmo to 200KIAS from 188KIAS, so you can actually cruise faster than a Baron down low and get the clearances in the teens and descent that are only available if you can keep 200KIAS. 188 is ridiculous.

2 - Get RSVM approval so you can hit FL300 and get a bit more range.

3 - Most importantly, get ELOS for stall speed above 61KTS to increase MTOW by 200-300 lbs, use 100lbs of that for more fuel.

Now you have kick-ass personal turboprop that can compete in the $2M range.

Else give it up.

On Mirage - agree 100% with you. The SFC of the 540s is simply disgraceful. Tuned induction 350HP TSIO550s with or without FADECs would be a vast improvement.

Re Cheyenne - Blackhawk now has a -125 conversion now - thing will scream ;)

Anyone that bet on anything other than G1000 is paying the price.

baron95 said...

bill e. goat said...
There isn't much of a market, for anything, until 2012-ish, so I'd say coming on line with production in 2013 will work out okay.

Well, the light jet world will be very different in 2013 BEG.

The new Eclipse, likely will have 250+ EA500 upgraded to late spec selling in the used market for $1.5M with on-par SFC. Diamond should be delivering the DiamondJet for $2M. Mustang C510+ and Phenom 100+ with improvements will be in the same segment as the PiperJet for about the same price. Used early 510s and Phenoms will be in the used market for $2M or so. Cirrus may have their Jet in the Market also at the $2M mark and Honda will probably be flying in the $4M mark. TBM may get a refresh as well, and G1000 TBMs and Meridians will be plentiful in the used market.

I can't see how a financially shaky Piper can be "okay" selling the DC-10 tailed PiperJet for $3M in the middle of all that.

I don't see it. They might have had a chance if they got to market before the other SEJs. But now it looks like they'll be the last ugly girl to get to the dance floor. Unless there are a bunch of drunk sailors on the floor she'll go home alone for sure.

baron95 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
baron95 said...

Re ParisJet, seriously, does anyone think that a jet that burns 1,000 lbs/hr is a good personal jet choice.

Thanks, but, no, thanks

bill e. goat said...

Hi Baron,

"Unless there are a bunch of drunk sailors..."

No, no- we're not talking about Wedge's factory overcapacity financial plan!

"I can't see how a financially shaky Piper can be 'okay' selling the DC-10 tailed PiperJet for $3M in the middle of all that."

I agree with all the prices you gave for worthy compeitors in the 2012-2013 time frame, which will indeed be attractive to many.

But I think the Piperjet will come in comfortably between the Meridian and other SEJ's at around $2M, and the Mustang for around $3.5M by then; figure the Honda will be $4.5M- I'd expect the Piperjet to go for 60% of that, and have more payload- an attractive proposition for many.

Interesting "tidbit" on the pitchover-with-power-problem (the ole PPP situation:)

"AOPA, Nozzle mutes PiperJet pitch changes"

"A new variable thrust vectored nozzle will simplify life for Piper Aircraft engineers and manufacturing staff. The nozzle, developed by engine manufacturer Williams International, improves the handling characteristics of the single-engine jet and allows Piper to change the tail from a trimmable-horizontal to a fixed-horizontal stabilizer, saving weight and simplifying manufacturing...The nozzle is passive to the pilot, but by using the Coanda effect, the nozzle changes the direction of the thrust slightly depending on power setting"

Ah, yes, the ole Coanda effect. (I think Wedge wrapped his head with aluminum foil- too bad he didn't think to do the same thing to the EA-500. Although some would say the skin is so thin that...and there was certainly enough high speed / high pressure / hot air).

A slightly, um, less disruptive explaination.

Those ole Bernoulli boys!

"Cruise speed so far on the POC (Proof of Concept) is 253 knots true, meaning that the aerodynamically cleaner production airplanes will easily achieve the planned 360 knots, according to Kromer"

Ah, how'd that go again,..."easily" ???

(Time to hit the ole hay!)

Floating Cloud said...

Bill e. Goat:

Yes indeed, some (EAC board) heads should role. Let the chips fall where they may. If that alone would make-up for the damages done, then the world would be a very different place.

Dearest Gadfly:

Thank you. I really would love to have one of your beautiful butterflies, but fear losing my anonymity may jeopardize some people I know. Hmm, the frosting on the cake vs ethics…? Must have been the same toss up for those Eclipse board members who let the original staff at EAC run amok and eat cake.

Floating Cloud

baron95 said...

BEG, The Meridian is selling TODAY for $2.2M.

How the heck is the PiperJet that is larger, flies a mile and a half higher and used a turbofan in the tail be sold for $2M?

It will be a $3M jet if it ever comes to market.

P.S. Only Automotive Technology, like this one that builds the composite A-pilar for LF-A will bring composite costs down in aviation. Just like it was the mass production of GPS chips and solid-state accelerometers for car stability controls that brought down t he cost of ADHRS and glass.

julius said...


the WIP parts falls under the UCC-Uniform Commercial Code laws

"Code laws"???
"UCC-Uniform Commercial Code" ????

Maybe - I didn't find any WIP related text in the U.C.C!
I think if "WIP" is a common relevant expression in our context then the U.C.C. will contain a definition of "WIP" parts (or objects?).

We will see if EA may use these "parts" without any additional payments for it's future business!


bill e. goat said...
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Shane Price said...

Black Tulip,

So far we have abided by the terms.

I knew I'd flush you out, eventually....

So I take it you're from the 'War Between the States' or even (perish the thought) 'War of Northern Aggression' camp?

I was minding my own business one day, re reading The Civil War, A Narrative by Shelby Foote. A nice young waitress, who happened to be American approached and asked me who the author was. I explained it was the excellent Mr Foote, whom Ken Burns had woven into his definitive documentary The Civil War (1990) as the 'voice of the South'.

She was not impressed by my repeated references to the 'civil war' and informed me that the correct name was 'The War of Northern Aggression'.

That's what she'd been taught in school, way down south in Alabama, presumably in the 2000's. It opened my eyes to how personal perspective changes the way we interpret the past.

While I could never side with the South, I admired the way she fought, for so long, against the gathering might of a proto modern industrial power. Never before did so many good men die for such an ignoble cause.

Thankfully your 'truce' has indeed held and long may both of you continue!


You'll have some facts to work with, rather than rank speculation.

Thanks for the best laugh I've had all week.

Why don't you look in the mirror? At the moment, EAI continues the long tradition of this ongoing farce by endlessly promising 'jam tomorrow' to those stupid enough to 'pay today'.

E5C's guiding lights parroted Vern's lies about thousands of orders for the FPJ, the 'free' upgrades for those who took delivery of incomplete aircraft and the slanderous allegations against suppliers, staff and yes, bloggers.

As a gentle reminder to adjust your rose tinted eyewear, can I remind you that:-

a) Vern was fired by his own BoD for being grossly incompetent

b) There never were '2,400' actual orders

c) Not one complete E500 was ever delivered

d) To cap it all, the multiple lawsuits against staff, suppliers and 'us' were dismissed (or settled) against EAC.

Take those facts back to E5C, in that format, and watch your fellow fantasist howl at such an uncomfortable intrusion of reality.

Yes of course there are spare parts circulating, and yes of course EAI will generate some income therefrom.

But the likelihood of making a long term business by servicing a reducing pool of victims, with competition from other FBO's, is remote.

The only way forward for you guys is for EAI to sell some aircraft, at a profit, that they've built from scratch. You know this, I know this and Mike and Mason know it too.

A few reconditioned DayJet birds won't count towards actual new production. Any sign of this happening, anytime soon?

Do tell, as I'm all ears, anxious to hear your perspective on EAI's 'truth'....


bill e. goat said...

I'm fed up.

For decades, US manufacturing has been mismanaged.

And usually, it's NOT the management'sfault- they are kowtowing to Board of Directors focused on short term profits.

Has this resulted in benefit to the stockholders or the communities these industries are located in? Just ask people in Seattle or Detroit.

The Eclispe suit against the ex-Board is a welcome start in what I hope becomes a wide spread investor revolt.

And it's time for some tax law changes to promote long-term planning as well.

bill e. goat said...

Hi Baron,

"Only Automotive Technology, like...will bring composite costs down in aviation"

At $375K per copy, THAT's a lesson in Wedge-onomics!!

(Composites and fly by wire were two items even Wedge decided to avoid :)

Lexus LF concept car

I remain, shall we say, skeptical, about the benefits of composites. Great for sailplanes and boats though. Seem to be working out purdy good for Cirrus and Diamond.

Beech uses them on the Premier and Horizon/4000 and Starship, but not the KingAir- seems like the KingAir is trouncing the lot of 'em.

Not sure of the real world performance benefits, other than lower production costs...maybe.

(Presumably, improved fatigue strength and corrosion resistance too. So theoretically, pluses, but real world? Seems like the Mustang with aluminum is do'n pretty well. Just seems like there are so many other factors in aircraft cost, that composite isn't a significant player. As a "techie" of sorts, I wanted to be "enthusiastic", but what I've seen of the implimentation, it hasn't lived up to it's potential. Throw in complications of hirf and lightning protection, ground planes for antennas, repairability, moisture absorbtion, observability of damage, etc, and the real world benefits are largely negated. Perhaps not quite entirely, but if Boeing had done an aluminum 787, it would be delivered by now.

Or maybe not- outsourcing has been a huge fiasco, as much as management incompetence. Maybe the BoD of Boeing should be sacked as well. The problem at Boeing isn't labor costs, it's bad senior level management, and even worse Board of Director control.

They are pounding away at relatively inconsequential labor costs at the point of final assembly, but almost everything is outsourced, so that is just plain insignificant, compared with the wasted inefficiency of a second assembly line, wherever.

Instead of replacing the workers in Washington state (whether union or non-union), it's time to replace the incompetent obstructions to profitability: the BoD. Bring in more Alfred E. Neuman statues, or more "ball and cups" for them to amuse themselves with while they talk about 747Xs, Sonic Cruisers, relocating HQ, and new assembly locations.

It's hard to say which has done a worse job over the past 10 years- the Eclipse, or Boeing, Board. Both had marvelous capability at their disposal, which they managed to mismanage, and dispose of, quite handily.

It makes one wonder why there even ARE Board of Directors- to represent the current investors, or to use them as window dressing to pull in MORE investors- ala a Ponzi scheme. The Boeing group is certainly NOT representing the current investors well at all.

Boeing Stooge List

Time to hold these losers accountable. Anyone who's been on the board for over two years, is a participant in the problem, not a solution to the problem.

RonRoe said...
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Shane Price said...


Yes of course there are spare parts circulating, and yes of course EAI will generate some income therefrom.

That's me, quoting me, rebutting you, saying I was denying EAI were shipping parts.

If that makes sense.

I don't need to join E5C to find that out, FPJ owners and suppliers have told me directly. Just like some FPJ owners tell me what's going wrong, or former suppliers tell me they'll never touch this aircraft, ever again.

And as for the lawyers.....

My point is not 'political', but a business one.

And it's simple, which I'm sure even a 'son of the South' like yourself can understand.

How will EAI make sustainable profits, without making something themselves?

Just shipping spares exposes the company to competition, which in turn limits margin. I know the spares business pretty well (about 15% of my company turnover is service based) and I also know that my gross margins are higher in other segments.

The most profitable part of any business, and that which ensures a future, it to sell stuff that others don't.

EAI are not doing that, and don't seem to have any plans, in the short term.

So, from the 'all seeing' heights of E5C, when can we expect the FPJ V 2.0?

Or even (whisper it) the ConJet?


Thought as much....

Which goes some way to prove that anyone paying $125 for E5C membership is wasting money. They can find out pretty much anything required here, and get it for free.

Plus have a good laugh, every now and then.

And (this is important) avoid the 'brainwashing' some of The Faithful seem so keen to inflict, which might save someone a lot more than $125.

I'm not and never intend to be a politician. I enjoy elections, but not the day to day slog thereafter, so I only bestir myself prior to voting day. While I've never even thought about running for office myself, I have a 100% record in getting my candidate(s) elected.

Bit like my blogging record, or my business record or my....

You get the drift.

Now, can we focus on what really matters?

Will EAI succeed? You think (hope?) they stand a chance.

I'm just curious why EAI seems determined not to sell the only item which might secure their future. It's a reasonable query, but it appears they are reluctant to address it.

Just like you...


Shane Price said...


Anyone who's been on the board for over two years, is a participant in the problem, not a solution to the problem.

Exactly. We have a similar problem with our banks here in Ireland. And the result?

I and my fellow taxpayers are going to pay something in the region of €60 billion, using a vehicle called NAMA (National Asset Management Agency) to re-capitalize our native banks. The alternative, so aptly demonstrated by Lehman Brothers, is meltdown.

Those who took excessive risk, in pursuit of excessive gain, should be penalized. Removal from office is the least we expect. Personally, I believe large fines and/or prison sentences are required to cause future miscreants pause for thought.

Otherwise it's reasonable to predict that banks will repeat their errors into the future.

I really do worry about Boeing now. While the 787 clearly will fly and perform to something approaching it's original specification, I begin to wonder if the program will ever make money.

Over here, it seems that Airbus have 'got away' with the A380, and are well on the way with the A350XWB. The only 'fly in the ointment' appears to be the A400 military transport, which suffers from cost overruns, missed deadlines and falling demand.


RonRoe said...
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RonRoe said...
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baron95 said...

bill e. goat said...
I'm fed up. For decades, US manufacturing has been mismanaged.

Has this resulted in benefit to the stockholders or the communities these industries are located in? Just ask people in Seattle or Detroit.
Why not ask the people in Charleston or Tuscaloosa or Spartanburg? Ask the local communities if they are happy with the state of the art production lines for Boeing, Mercedes, BMW?

Ask them about the 3 fold increase in tax revenues and wages in those counties.

You are correct. US manufacturing has been mismanaged for decades. But now it is being fixed in short order.

US Manufacturing work will continue to migrate from the decrepit, non-right-to-work, union-heavy midwest and north to the free states of the South.

And that is causing a ressurgence.

You are good at googling. Do yourself a favor. Google the above towns and plants. BMW's factory was featured in Modern Factories or Modern Marvels episode of the Discovery channel. It is BMWs most productive factory (in $$$ output per worker) anywhere in the world.

Just because the failed unioninzed model in high tax states like Michigan is being demolished, don't generalize it.

It happened in steel, it is hapening in autos, it will happen in aerospace.

Shane Price said...


I never said EAI weren't shipping parts. I'm just asking why they're so coy about what, if any, plans they have for building something themselves.

You know, good old fashioned capitalism. You make a product, add a margin, sell it and bank the profits.

And thanks for the offer of a whip around. But I fail to see the point of joining a fan club for something that has no future...

I still hold that was a success. Lots of dodgy claims were made on there, including many from The Faithful.

- The future was airtaxi

- There were 2,400 orders for the FPJ

- Roel was going succeed in his Chapter 11 game

The list is practically endless. So, when we come to weigh the balance, the few times I personally got it wrong don't seem that important. I withdrew, promptly, anything seriously offending or caused others to do so. I always, as it happens, maintained good relations with E5C.

And have the email record to prove it.

One thing does interest me. You accuse me of 'name calling'. If you mean The Faithful, go ask the Cardinal himself. He used that exact term when I gifted him his own headline post in October 2008.

Are you worried that I referred to you as a 'simple son of the South'?

You said that's what you were. Have you changed your mind?

No, name calling is something I reserve for the likes of Vern and Roel. I feel they deserve some payback for the pain they've inflicted. It's not a lot, but it cheers up some of those affected.

So, there is no sign of either the ConJet (short for Concept Jet, which is what Vern called it) or the E500 V 2.0.

When there is, let me know. On second thoughts, don't bother.

I'm much more likely to believe what I hear from the supplier network. And most of them think there are two chances of a production restart.


And none at all.

Have a great Halloween weekend, and try not to scare the children. Remember, they're supposed to frighten us...


gadfly said...
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gadfly said...
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drotchin said...
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airtaximan said...
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airtaximan said...

Why would anyone believe the posts on the e5c are any more factual than the ones here?

One FACT we know is from time to time some owners post one thing here, and contradictory posts on the E5C... why? Which post is true?

Is the e5c website somehow a filter for fact vs fiction... Is it a magic website where what's posted there has to be true? We KNOW this is not the case.

The reason I post this, is because the owners/depositors/stakeholders regularly refer to themselves as more credible, when in fact, they have been more wrong than simple onlookers regarding important issues relating to EAC.

Some think they are shills, parrots, clueless, or just blind/punch-drunk by the coolaide....

I personally don't care which - just don't like anyone playing the "owners" card - they have provided much misinformation, many wrong "facts" over the years.

Following what they say as fact is a dangerous move.

airtaximan said...

I remember a time when the owners-in-waiting sometimes claimed the "facts" they used to contradict some opinions on this blog, came from Vern...

Now they are suing him.

Kinda ironic

RonRoe said...
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RonRoe said...
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airtaximan said...

RR, I guess that was the gist, but your reference to discovering the FACTS there, is pretty wild.

Those guys have not been accurate, and it would not surprise me to find inaccurate statements about he supportability of the EA50 from the owners, since some have been known to say whatever they need to to get others to think buying an EA50 is a good idea.

BassMaster said...

RR you have implied clearly that you don't own an eclipse. Why on earth would you pay to partake in a discussion forum with those that do? Your time and your money so whatever. Look back at posts on that site from 2008 and see how intuitive everyone was as to things to come. Especially MPs BS. Just about every word he spoke was a lie and people seemed to suck it up. Obviously they still do. Glad to see that some vendors got PMA in the interim. Hope it benefits some owners with better pricing. Let's see if Lundeen can ever do anything with the Japanese actuators. He sure had them afraid to talk to anyone for a season. Il say again best of luck to all. RR hope you get your $125 worth from that site. The site admin went to dinner on your dime. At least we know that to be true.

BassMaster said...

I must say on MPs behalf that he does see the relevance of the jet. I have hands on with it and can say that once the system is "burnt in" it's solid.

airtaximan said...

Folks, I just don't like the idea that anyone says more honesty or accuracy comes from the E5C or the owners or any other stakeholder.

FACT is those guys have something to gain by misinformation, all we have here is the pride in being able to see the truth.

It would be funny to see someone who bought in later, sue... say the likes of Ken who spread the BS pretty thick all over the place - just to get more deposit money subsidizing his plane(s).

Look fo accurate information everywhere, and keep in mind who is providing it, and for what reason. What reason they might have....

Its a good compass.

Shane Price said...


I won't repeat the mistake of trying to enlighten you. Whenever I get the urge, I'll just go slam my head against a brick wall a few times, since that will be quicker and equally productive. :-)

Over the entire period I've been observing EAC, I assure you that the feelings I have towards those ensnared by this farce are very similar.


I offer facts, you counter with opinions, as is in how could 'someone who's never seen an E500' know anything about it.

I beg to differ. I'm probably one of the few people outside EAC that really understands what went on inside EAC.

I have documents, voice recordings, video, management projections and investor presentations. I have personal interviews with staff, managers, depositors, customers and suppliers. I have court records, almost the entire contents of the EAC 'data room' and a 'radioactive' set of papers from Russia.

And yes, I also have emails.

Thousands of emails. An audit trail which is time stamped and full of 'smoking guns', most of which provide verifiable cross checking for each other.

In short, I'm in possession of enough material to paint a vivid and compelling picture of the recent past, and likely future, of this whole sorry mess.

What do you have, other than E5C?

Just asking, as we might be able to compare sources....


BassMaster said...

How many newco folks are in the suits? MP and MH both had IOUs. The hogshit that's been flying along with the abc Club with all the platinum gold silver and what not is silly. It looks to be good for NAJ but if they get under water KR will hoefully be able to have an out. He may need it and I'm pretty sure he's got that covered. NAJ would do just fine without any newco BS.

Phil Bell said...

New Headline post is up!

Phil Bell said...

(Thanks to all for this thread- glad to hear from RonRoe that there are suppliers "on board" to support the existing fleet).