Tuesday, July 14, 2009

A Special Guest Lecturer For This Week's Class !


I am most pleased to have obtained Mr. Richard Aboulafia's permission to post his July 2009 newsletter, the topic of which is Boeing's ah, "progress" with the 787 program.
Mr. Aboulafia is Vice President of Analysis for the Teal Group, and his was one the earliest (and most accurate and credible) assessments of the challenges faced by our friends in Albuquerque during their arduous march to certification and production- and, well, bankruptcy. That drama is still being played out, as the bankruptcy proceedings...um, proceed- and will continue to be a central theme of the blog. But it is interesting to note that even the "big guys" can have their share of challenges too.
Without further ado, and with utmost appreciation; here's Richard's July 2009 Newsletter (inclusive article starts/stops with red text, and is shown without quotation marks for the reader's convenience):

Dear Fellow DayDreamliner Believers,

The battle of Jutland didn’t start well for the Royal Navy. As the British and German fleets fired their opening rounds, three RN capital ships took direct hits. Two were battlecruisers that blew up and sank, taking thousands of sailors with them. In the midst of the carnage, Admiral Sir David Beatty turned to his flag captain and said “There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today.”

I’m reminded of this droll understatement because, for Boeing, there seems to be something wrong with their bloody plane today. The week after Le Bourget, the industry was hit with the latest 787 news – first flight was delayed again, this time due to problems with the wing-to-body join structure. This development cast an unpleasant retroactive shadow over Le Bourget. Boeing said it was looking at possible fixes and tried to sound upbeat, or as upbeat as possible given the circumstances. They haven’t provided a new schedule, but that’s just as well because nobody would take a sixth schedule particularly seriously. Days after that announcement, Boeing moved to buy Vought’s share of the 787 program, which unintentionally signaled that the company had not yet fully straightened out the situation with at least one of its major partners.

This is all seriously bad. As we digested the news, I paused to reflect on just what a tremendous drug-like rush the 787 program once was, and just what a ghastly let down it has become. A few years ago I said it was the aviation equivalent of the i-Pod – a revolutionary product that would be a category killer and would change the way we perceive of aircraft production. The sales figures were extraordinary. It was clearly the key to Boeing’s reinvention, and to helping the company maintain its status as an export powerhouse. We knew a market downturn was coming, but the 787 looked set to keep its supply chain companies –much of the aerospace industry – healthy due to overwhelming demand. The 787 also looked set to prove that advanced market economies could compete in manufacturing, and that global industrial supply chains were a brilliant concept. No wonder the 787’s structure has stress problems – that’s a lot of weight for a mere airplane to bear.

The 787 had additional meaning because of what it wasn’t. It came with a coherent business case, without delusions and wishful thinking. The 787 was created as a truly global product, rather than as a foolish display of national pride. The 787 introduced new technology. Most of all, the 787 is what the market wants – an efficient, long-ranged mid-market plane, perfect for new point-to-point routes that would bring the world closer together. In short, the 787 was in all ways the exact opposite of the A380. Unfortunately for Boeing, the A380, while still commercially irrelevant, is flying in revenue service. We have no idea when the 787 will achieve that status.

This final delay has also obliterated much of Boeing’s credibility. BCA executives have reasonable explanation for their optimistic posturing at Le Bourget. They were apparently not informed about the extent of the problems at that point. But those of us at the rollout two years ago (on 7-8-07) are stuck with some baffling memories, and few explanations with much plausibility. Executives there were every bit as optimistic as they were at Le Bourget, firmly convinced that the plane would fly two months later. Either you had very high ranking executives willing to lie, or you had an organization that was completely unable to tell those high ranking executives that the plane that had just been rolled in had more in common with a Revell model kit than with anything that actually might get airborne.

To understand how this happened, you need to look back in time. A grossly oversimplified recent history of Boeing: Twelve years ago McDonnell Douglas effectively used Boeing’s money to buy Boeing. This resulted in a struggle between a faction that wanted to invest in Boeing’s future (basically the legacy Boeing crowd) and a faction that wanted to invest in Boeing’s shareholders (basically the McDonnell Douglas leadership).You can find a slightly less simplified chronicle of these events in my May 2003 and December 2003 letters, archived at http://www.richardaboulafia.com/.

The future investment faction won, but at a price: the McDonnell Douglas zombie bit them before it died. To sell the new plane to the board and to investors, they needed to get as much cost and risk as possible off Boeing’s books. This resulted in a short-sighted decision to trust enormous parts of the 787’s development and integration work to partners, without due diligence to ensure that these partners were up to the job. (Disclosure: I was a big fan of this approach at the time, and I still think production work outsourcing is a good idea.) Like a lot of the US economy in the last decade, the program relied way too much on leverage to make something big happen with an inadequate financial base. The desire to create the plane at minimal cost also resulted in an impossibly aggressive schedule that just made things worse. Work was performed out-of-sequence or with temporary components just to meet arbitrary cost-driven milestones, without any production processes put in place. Billions in cost overruns, late fees, and other expenses are the result. The Vought 787work acquisition adds another $1 billion to the bill ($580million in cash, $422 million in payments forgiveness). The savings from putting design and development work in the hands of partners has been dwarfed by the cost of remedying the damage wrought by that strategy.

Finally, the new Boeing also disempowered the company’s engineers, turning its back on a decades-old management culture that didn’t always produce profits but did always produce great planes. Instead, it embraced McDonnell Douglas’s culture of leadership by money people. This disconnect between engineers and finance executives would explain why bad news wasn’t communicated upstairs, either at Le Bourget 2009 or at the 7-8-07 rollout. Countries that survive civil wars and internal strife, such as South Africa, create a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Boeing badly needs something like that, to establish what lines of communication broke down and what went horribly wrong.

What happens next? Nobody can say. There’s a strong chance that Boeing is being factual, and that the plane will arrive in 2010, and that it will perform as advertised. It’s also possible that there will be seventh, eighth, and ninth delays, with an EIS in 2011. There’s also an unlikely but not impossible worst case scenario: a 787 that’s simply a mediocre aircraft. The proven Boeing track record (“We’re ten for ten!”) has been replaced by the unpleasant memory of McDonnell Douglas’s checkered past. The nickel and dimed MD-11 mediocrity, the useless MD JSF competitor, the out-of-control cost overruns of the C-17, and worst of all, the scandalous MD/GD A-12 carrier stealth attack plane. The likely (or at least hopeful) scenario is that the 787 winds up like the C-17, a nightmare development program followed by an impressive technical achievement and a profitable production phase. But we can’t rule anything out. The A-12 is the most haunting extreme outlier: a mere Potemkin Village plane. Those of us at the 7-8-07 rollout wouldn’t have dreamt of that comparison at the time. But who knows what to believe anymore?

In short, the 787 has become less of an adrenaline rush of optimism, and more of a wait-and-see story. Returning to the Jutland analogy, as Churchill said of Admiral Jellicoe, commander of the British fleet in World War One, he is the only man who can lose the war in an afternoon. The men in charge of the 787 today must know exactly how that feels.

This month, we’ve updated the Commercial Jetliner market overview, as well as the 747, 767, CSeries, Dash 8, ERJ 170/190, C-27J/G.222, Hawker 800/4000, UH-1, UH-60, SH/MH-60, EC 145/UH-72,MD500, and the Nimrod. Have a good month.

Yours, “Til The RealityLiner Arrives,
Richard Aboulafia

As was posted on the previous thread- Woo- Hoo !! Long time Eclipse watchers no doubt enjoyed the irony in Mr. Aboulafia's description of events at "the lazy B ranch", and the similarity to those in "the land of enchanment". I would have to say, given Richard's familiarity with aviation history, and current events- he's both an aviation critic, and enthusiast!! Please accept our sincere thanks for your excellent analysis, and your graciousness in sharing it with us.

(Now, least I be accused of being un-critic-al, or overly enthusiast-ic; I am pleased to present "Another View", which provides solid confirmation of Mr. Aboulafia's insightful analysis ! :)

287 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 287 of 287
EclipsePilotOMSIV said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
airtaximan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Deep Blue said...

B95:

Concerning the F-22, OK. Let's build 500.

Then let's line them up and point them somewhere.

Where might that be?

Patrolling our opium fields in Af-G? Looking after our 'assets' in Iraq? Hunting down the mysterious, ever-living "Osama?"

Fighting "Russians?"

The F-22 and JSF are toys; they are make-work projects and propaganda tools.

As for the IDF, that is a U.S. funded satropy in a country w/o a nuclear NPT, fielding our "surplus" tech.

As for a GA SP jet, well, there isn't one. Should we call Vern back? I could think of worse things. Like a piston twin, a t-prop on one engine. Yikes.

Baron95 said...

I submit to you that THIS picture alone will win many wars before they are even fought. How do you put a price tag on winning a war without even fighting it?

WhyTech said...

"Gosh, Whytech, I had no idea your PC-12 could suffer a *dual* engine failure on takeoff. It must be a very special machine :)"

Ken, I am not given to name calling, but I must tell you that sometimes I am convinced beyond the shadow of a doubt that you are a world class idiot! If you had bothered to read a bit more carefully, you would have noted that this was a reposne to BT's double engine failure training in a Citation.


"Dual engine failure at takeoff and the no-engine ILS are really single-engine aircraft scenarios."

Right, Ken, we know that you have nothing left to learn. Ever hear of Flight 1549?

Baron95 said...

Deep Blue said...
Concerning the F-22, OK. Let's build 500.Then let's line them up and point them somewhere.
===========================

Well, I'm for 250 actually - 20 squadrons.

Remember DB, we are building these planes for the next 50 years. Once we kill the line, that is it. We can't build any more.

Where do we point them?

I'm SURE in the next 50 years, there will be PLENTY of need to point them. Perhaps not use them, but point them. see pic above.

Lets see 20 years from now, Russia fields stealthy fighters, has a resurgent nationalistic govmt, starts to interfere in multiple countries, suffers west-led sanctions and acts outside it's borders, into Europe or funds/equips Siria, Iran, North Korea, etc to act out on its behalf with 5th gen fighters and 6th gen LPI air defenses.

Star lobbing missiles from mobile launchers (which can't be dfeated by cruise missiles) into Israel, Saudi oil fields, Seoul, Tokio, Europe.

Now what?

Your daughter in in the airforce in 2029 and is piloting a bomb truck.

Do you want your daughters's strike package to be escorted by a pair of F22's or 50 year old eagles?

See how things can change?

Deep Blue said...

B95 said:

"I submit to you that THIS picture alone will win many wars before they are even fought. How do you put a price tag on winning a war without even fighting it?"

Yes. The S-bomber too. Another useless toy.

Which brings us to the real question.

How does a country "win" a war today? And whose "war" is it, really? U.S.? CIA? Oil Corps? Foreign sovereigns? Read Sun-Tzu: deception (that should make VR a true warrior).

OK, back to GA.

I'm buying a LR-35A. Fast, sexy, safe, roomy, great re-sale, potty for the ladies in the family, charter, and I can fly it with my 25-year old type rating (and a co-pilot if I keel over!).

Deep Blue said...

B95:

I'll take the Eagles any day.

Of course my daughter (she is in fact a pilot and flies a L-29) would want Tom Cruise in the cockpit.

Kids today.

Baron95 said...

WhyTech,

Ken's point, and I agree with him, that every pilot and certainly non-professional pilots (those of us that have another job, short of time, etc), have LIMITED SIM/TRAINING TIME.

Is it worth it to spend a lot of sim time on unlikely events like Jet double failures at takeoff, OR, is it more productive to spend SIM time on the things that are ACTUALLY KILLING pilots.

How many people have gotten killed in the last 10 years due to double fan jet failure?

ZERO?

Is it productive to train exhaustively for it?

This blog (not you wytech) has a prob with cost benefit analysis. The likes of ATM, ASM, Shane, Fred, sometimes assume there are infinite resources and time to devote to things. THERE NEVER IS.

It is all a matter of making the right trade offs.

Do I think double engine failure should be taken into account on the emergency procedures and training? YES.

Do I think that the same amount of time should be devoted to that for twin training as it is for singles? NO.

SIM training should be largely about the things that are actually killing people.

WhyTech said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
WhyTech said...

"SIM training should be largely about the things that are actually killing people."

In general, I cant disagree. However, I did clearly state that while these scenarios were less probable than others, they refine important skills in dealing with many different specific emergencies. Flying these scenarios required only a small portion of total sim time, and were among the most productive training I have done,IMO. Heard about the three Beech Jet 400 dual engine failures in recent years? Thought to be due to ice build up inside the engine. Yes, no one died, but perhaps thats only because of superior training.

"(those of us that have another job, short of time, etc), have LIMITED SIM/TRAINING TIME."

You have EXACTLY the same amount of time as everyone else. You are simply electing to spend less time/money on training. I am always disturbed by those who are trying to fly on the cheap. If you are flying a pressurized turbine acft and cant afford to train to a high degree of proficiency, perhaps you cant afford to be flying this class of acft. I would not elect to fly with such pilots, and would prefer not to share the same airspace.

airtaximan said...

c'mon, no one like my joke?

gadfly said...

baron

Yes, I know you have some problem with my comments, but I had to laugh at a recent blog (not at “you”, mind you, but at your comment): “The F22s mission is to kill air assets . . .”.

And my mind turned instantly to the Eclipse, whose mission “could have been” to kill “assets” . . . and it did it quite well . . . all “$2 billion” of them (except a few uncompleted airframes, here and there).

gadfly

(EP etc., you’re right, I’m old . . . but I ain’t dead yet.)

airtaximan said...

oh boy.. I can feel a food fight...

WhyTech said...

"This blog (not you wytech) has a prob with cost benefit analysis. The likes of ATM, ASM, Shane, Fred, sometimes assume there are infinite resources and time to devote to things. THERE NEVER IS."

Well, its a matter of priorities. I put an extraordinarily high value on my ass and those of my pax. I find the time and dollars to be proficient. My target is the kind of safety record achieved by corporate aviation - in round numbers about 50X better than GA overall.
It would seem that you are satisfied with much less than this.

gadfly said...

Not that it matters, but one of my daughters and her family stopped by the shop a few minutes ago, on their way out to “Kirtland”, to see a demo of the Osprey. How long has that thing been going on . . . twenty, thirty years? More? It’s impressive watching the thing fly . . . but it’s possibly a couple decades late.

In real estate, it’s “location, location, location”. In aviation, it’s “timing, timing, timing” . . . the rest is way down on the list.

gadfly

julius said...

Looking at the grafic with the 787-suppliers I get the feeling that Boeing designed the 787 in terms of shape, size, properties of the wing ("soft"), weights, and speeds plus a "little bit" more. Finally the procurement department was involved to get the parts...

Then Boeing assembles those parts
and experiences some problems.

And who made the mistake?
There is always someone who is responsible - perhaps without commitment!

Now there is a miracle: Although the alien (the 787) fails Boeing and the supplier piped down for more than three weeks!

BTW: Nike doesn't make any shoes - they design and sell shows!

Julius

P.S.: What about "EAC"'s final act?

airtaximan said...

funny comment regarding MY attitude towards unlimited resources... I would never say such a thing - and I have aways been appalled at the waste associated with EAC, plus the garbage result.

You on the other hand, seem to defend it as "cost of doing business"...

I think most of yourrecent comments reflect an "unlimited resources" attitude... I would offer a more kinder gentler approach where time and money need to be spent wisely, and none of this is black and white.

My wise spend might not be the same as yours... in fact, I may think you are being terribly wasteful... but that's what this is all about.

You do yourself a disservice dismissing my ideas as one's that come from the land of endless resources - its just a diffrent perspective on priorities.

I think EAC was a silly waste of time and money, and you don't. What does this say about your respect for resources?

gadfly said...

julius

This will get much static . . . but that’s OK. My philosophy for a new product is to keep everything “in house” from the start, to maintain absolute control over each and every aspect, and then “slowly” bring in the sub-contractors, forcing each to prove quality and conformance. Some will argue that this is not possible . . . possibly that’s true. But the principle remains, that the best approach remains to keep it all “in house” (in the beginning), unless, and until, you have established over time a relationship with a subcontractor, that for all practical purposes, is already a part of the family.

Once you lose control over quality, and performance, it is nearly impossible to regain it . . . and in the mean time, you lose customer confidence, which once lost, is often lost forever.

gadfly

(A "lie", whether real, or just perceived . . . it is almost impossible to ever recover, in the mind of a customer.)

Anonymous said...

Well, I train every six months with brand-name part 142 facility and we've never done a dual flameout on takeoff to an ILS scenario in the sim. It has never been mentioned as something we might want to try.

I would wager that less than 1% of corporate operators would bother with such an unlikely scenario.

As Baron said, there are finite resources. We have to choose, do we practice for the likely emergencies like electrical or hydraulic failures, or maybe an engine failure, or do we spend our precious sim time on the situation where we lose both engines on takeoff assuming we had a straight out departure from a runway with an ILS running the opposite way with no nav guidance needed from our radios on the way out (so we could have that ILS up) where we are high enough to make the turn back but still close enough to glide in?

Maybe I could see this in a single. Maybe. The odds of making that work in real life with a real engine failure seem pretty slim. When I flew a PC-12 part 135 we never discussed this.

And, airtaximan, your comments are totally inappropriate. Do I agree with Ken on all things Eclipse? No. Do I think you're right to make these kind of "jokes" about him? No. Show some honor and delete your post.

Anonymous said...

Grammar Girl would be unhappy with me.

I should have said fewer than 1% of operators

sorry

gadfly said...

We'll forgive you . . . if you remember to never again begin a paragraph with the personal pronoun "I".

Deep Blue said...

A short ps concerning aviation tech:

B95 and others champion high tech. It is interesting how the U.S. has nearly 6,000 dead youth (that we know of) killed by 3rd world fighters.

We have F-16s, F-22s, B-1Bs, B-2, B-52s, Ospreys, UAVs, smart bombs, ad infinitum.

The "enemy" has, what, IEDs? So-called "suicide bombers?" All coming from destitute countries?

High tech is an illusion (and a game).

What if Mexico decided to invade the US? (as if it hasn't already).

What would we do? Bomb Mexico with B-2 stealth bombers? Fly F-22s to kill bandits on the borders?

Mexico could overwhelm the US in 5 days; they already have in California. Should we shoot smart bombs at them?

The IDF has over 200 nuclear warheads. Their only option is to vaporize Islam (which they may try). Then what?

Low tech + desperation beats high tech - desperation, any day.

High tech + desperation = doomsday.

As for GA, I still like the LR-35A!

As for Mexico, they seem to be picking up more aerostructure outsource work. Yikes.

gadfly said...

michael

One of the less known advantages of this “blog site” is to practice composing well understood English rhetoric. Many do not care, but never-the-less, the ability to express thoughts, thinking through how they will be received and interpreted, is a great “brain exercise”. Your simple comment demonstrates that you care about not only “what you say”, but “how you say it”.

‘Keep up the good work.

gadfly

(That's all . . . over and out!)

airtaximan said...

Man... I miss the old days....

OK... sorry you did not find it funny.

WhyTech said...

"where we lose both engines on takeoff assuming we had a straight out departure from a runway with an ILS running the opposite way with no nav guidance needed from our radios on the way out (so we could have that ILS up) where we are high enough to make the turn back but still close enough to glide in?"

Obviously you havent tried it or even thought about it in a detailed way. An ILS will do you little good in a situation where you are turning back to the departure runway because you will likely not intercept the localizer until about the point you touch down if the engines quit at minimum turnback altitude (Do you know what that is for your acft?) . What seems to work best is to look at the airport layout, select the "best" emergency return runway (often the departure runway, but not always), put a GPS waypoint on the threshold of that runway, and brief the return procedure before take off. If you break out at 200 ft, you had better be close to aligned with the runway because you wont be able to do much maneuvering with the alt remaining.

"When I flew a PC-12 part 135 we never discussed this."

I wouildnt admit this if I were you. One of the few PC-12 engine failure accidents was exactly this scenario. The pilot turned to "where I thought the runway was" (he had not set up any guidance back to the runway) and when he broke out, fortunately he partly guessed right, but was high and fast, and overran the runway, with some injuries and major damage. If he had been able to see the distance to the threshold on the GPS, he might have done even better. You have read the NTSB report havent you? I trained at a name brand 142 training facility and we did multiple versions of this scenario every single time. It is an eye opener, and, as I am getting tired of stating, the discipline and areonatutical decison making this scenario demands carries over into other emergency situations. IMO, because it is such a demanding scenario to fly successfully, becoming proficient at this creates "headroom" for handling lesser emergencies.

I do agree that this is less likely in a multiengine acft (especially a turbine - more likely in a piston twin fueld with Jet A in error), but it has training value, and if you are training every six months, you have plenty of sim time to work on this instead of doing the same old things over and over. What are you going to do IF this happens besides kiss you axx goodbye and perhaps take out a bunch of poor souls on the ground because you didnt know how to respond??

KnotMPH said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
airsafetyman said...

"The likes of ATM, ASM, Shane, Fred, sometimes assume there are infinite resources and time to devote to things. THERE NEVER IS."

Baron, I don't see the need to practice two-engine out landings in the Eclipse any more than a piston twin. Speaking of infinite resources it is asking a lot of the taxpayer to say the $350 million dollar F-22 is really a lot better than the $15 million dollar F-15E, but the reasons are secret, so you will just have to trust us. Remember the F-117? They are already being withdrawn from service. My old F-4Es are going strong in Turkey, as are their sister F-4s in Germany and Greece, never mind talking about the F-15s. Why are the F-117s being withdrawn so early? Were they not a stupendous waste of taxpayer money? Does anybody accept responsibility for that fiasco? Its all well and good to wave the flag and say we need this or that but as you said there are not infinite resources available. Right now we need all the best-equipped SEALs and Special Forces we can generate.

gadfly said...

KnotMPH

You caught me going out the door. But building a new product from scratch is a lot like "super vision", which is "super" "vision" . . . knowing more, and observing more, than those who are being super-vised. It's like raising kids . . . going from maximum control, to minimum control, over time in a careful management/training period, to assure that when the "kids' (or in this case the "subcontractors") will carry out precisely what is needed.

Forgive me in "mid sentence", or my wife will "sentence me" for being late.

gadfly

(Some day, I dream of the possibility of retirement, or at least a reduced work week . . . say thirty hours?)

Shane Price said...

Ken,

I did not write anything like the statement you attributed to me.

Suffering a little 'irony deficit' today?

Come on, Ken, I went on to attribute you with a claim every ramp would be covered in E500's, 'wingtip to wingtip'.

Like it or not, its' a FACT that FlightAware have highlighted a 54.8% annual decline in E500 activity.

So, did you try that experiment I suggested?

Did she manage a little more than 35lbs, when the ol' adrenaline kicked in?

Do tell...

And another thing, how many more flights in your E500 before your costs drop below $4,000 per hour?

Or maybe I should re calculate, based on the current (reducing) value of a 'middle' serial number like yours?

The longer this wait for a buyer of the 'assets' goes on, the less an E500 is worth. Pretty soon, you'll be paying someone to take it away.

Baron,

Anyone with an E500 needs to be reminded about Midway. It appears that those who suspended their critical faculties and got sucked into EAC need to be told something many times before it sinks in.

As a example, I'm STILL getting email from depositors, wondering what happened.

Go figure.

Shane

Baron95 said...

Gadfly said... Eclipse, whose mission “could have been” to kill “assets” . . . and it did it quite well . . . all “$2 billion” of them

======================

And that is where you and ATM (similar comments) are so WRONG.

Money Assets were NOT killed. On a low inflation scenario like what we live in in the US, Money is never destructed. It simply circulates. And the faster it circulates the more value it has.

If you keep $1 under the mattress (zero velocity) it does no good. If you use your $1 to buy a screw driver to build something and the screw driver maker uses that to buy metal to make a screw driver and the metal supplier uses that to buy ore from a mine, etc...that is generating a lot of good.

Now your $1 generated a lot of economic good REGARDLESS if you actually build something with the screw driver or if you put it under the mattress. Or regardless of if you built something desirable or a flop. Once you imparted velocity to your $1, it is doing good until someone brings its velocity down to ZERO by parking it under the mattress.

Of the $2B Eclipse raised, probably 99%+ have cycled back into the economy are are circulating with greater than zero velocity. From the $1 in wages, that went to ABQ grocery store to the farmer in CA, to the $1 that was used to buy a wing set that sits unused at ABQ to the $1 that was collected from Ken. It is all out there moving OUR economy.

So the $2B is still out there. None of it was killed or destroyed, Gad. I'm surprised you can't grasp that concept.

ON TOP OF THAT.... in the wake of imparting non zero velocity to $2B, Eclipse left in its wake...260 twin fanjet with a MTOW of less than 6,000 lbs (never before achieved), 520+ very small turbofans (in the 900lbs class - never before achieved), the first ever GA plane certified with ECBs, FSW for low level production (with all its pluses and minuses), etc, an alternative certified fire suppression system (with all its pluses and minuses), tens of thousands of line of integrated avionics SW (with all its pluses and minus), a lot of lessons learned on market acceptance, price elasticity, etc in the VLJ space. Add to that an appreciation for what it takes to support jet owner/operators. All that has some value.

So, net/net, Mr Gadfly - Eclipse accelerated the circulation speed of $2B and left some new (never before accomplished) air assets.

Only fools can fail to appreciate that.

Now, IT IS TRUE, that with better use and better management, Eclipse COULD have imparted even more velocity to that $2B and accomplished a lot more. Cessna with the C510 and Embraer with the Phenom 100 did just that.

But that doesn't mean Eclipse was a net negative to the economy. It was just not as much a net positive as C510/Phenom100 programs.

Capiche?

Baron95 said...

ASM said...Why are the F-117s being withdrawn so early?
===========================
Because the F(A)-22 took over that mission. It is more stealthy, carries a greater and more varied payload and cam be used day one.

F15E - $15M???!!!??? Do you mean the engines for the F15E?

F4Es? OK, if you are sending your daughter into air combat over Russian or North Korea airspace 1st day of war, you want her to be on a German F4E or American F22?

Is that worth $75M (the fly away difference between the next F22 and the next F15SE)

Shane Price said...

Baron,

Personally, I'd prefer that my kids avoided all warlike activity. It tends to leave a mess, which adults have to clean up afterwards.

I like the F-22. It's fast, stealthy and multi role.

But it's a bit like the Panzer Mark VI, known to history as the 'Tiger'. They're simply weren't enough of them to deal with 90,000+ Shermans and T-34/38's

Put it another way. If you have to fight, follow your own Ulysses S. Grant's advice.

“The art of war is simple enough. Find out where your enemy is. Get at him as soon as you can. Strike him as hard as you can, and keep moving on.”

If I was you guys, I'd build lots of cheap stuff and replace it with new cheap stuff, quickly. That way, when the next war comes along (that's actually worth fighting) you're not stuck with old crap from the last one.

Shane

gadfly said...

baron/Ken

Forgive me if I'm starting to get the two of you somehow mixed up . . . you both are so "right" all the time. (Are you twins?)

And you're probably right, considering the $2 billion in light of the new economy. Foolish me . . . thinking that that much money (or any amount, for that matter) should have turned a profit. Times have certainly changed. I wonder if there is some way for you to convey this "new" wisdom to the many local shops that are left "holding the bag" (empty), as it were, after Eclipse closed its doors. And then there's all those families, that "came" and "went" . . . little folk that have a difficult time understanding the new "math" of economics.

gadfly

(Maybe it's the heat . . . here at the house, at 7,050 feet, it's still at 90 degrees at 7PM . . . messes up a person's mind.)

airtaximan said...

Baron, I like your new economic theory... where profits, decent products and the like are irrelevant.

Seems to contradict you theories last week.

Personally, I'd rather have $1.x or $2.x millions under my mattress, or invested in something worthwhile than naything to do with the EA50... becasue money and time are simply not infinite... last I checked.

Nice theory though.

I bet, if you went to the hospital for a problem with your arm, and they removed your leg for $20,000... you would not say, "what the heck... as long as money is circulating"...

this is getting interesting -

"there are no better or worse uses for capital... as long as its used... there's no better or worse investments... some investments that result in a loss are as good as the ones with a profit"...

Sounds a lot like Vern.

airsafetyman said...

"Because the F(A)-22 took over that mission."

What mission did the F-117 perform better than the F-15E or the later versions of the F-4 for that matter? If the F-117 DID perform them better than the F-15 or F-4 why were not the F-15s and NATO F-4s sidelined to make way for the used F-117s? And why would any sane person use a $350 million dollar airplane (a third of a BILLION dollars) to put an iron bomb on a target.

Troglodyte said...

Re: Training for dual flameout

There have been three incidents of dual flame out in the Beechjet that I am aware of. I believe that in each case at least one engine was able to be restarted before a dead-stick landing had to be accomplished. The problem seems to be related to ice buildup in an unanticipated portion of the engine.

The Beechjet uses the P&W JT15D-5. Citations use various JT15D versions, and I suspect Black Tulip’s Citation trainers were aware of this.

I also suspect that the Beechjet pilots involved were either glad for dual flameout simulator training, or wished they’d had it. Other incidents, such as the “Gimli Glider” come to mind as well. As does the more recent power loss experienced by the Delta 777 at Heathrow.

Seems to me that some time devoted to power loss affecting all engines of a multi-engine aircraft is pretty reasonable.

--Trog

gadfly said...

taximan said: “. . . if you went to the hospital for a problem with your arm, and they removed your leg for $20,000 . . . you would not say, “what the heck . . . as long as money is circulating” . . .”

That’s pure genius, my friend. So few words, and you have completely explained “Obama’s and Congress’” stimulus plan.

You made my day!

gadfly

fred said...

deep blue :

High tech is an illusion

Oh man , you cannot even understand how right you are !
(only a way of saying ... i know you know ! ;-) )

the picture of the bomber provided by B. is only a left-over from a past gone for some times ...

what would be the point to nail a mosquito with a nuke ?

does B2 serve at anything in finding Ben-laden ?

even the undetectable-tech has been proved to be detectable !!

each time the so-called predominance of one country over others is shown , it ONLY serve the interest of the very few ones crazy enough to pick on the fight against an almighty foe ...!

this is where Ben-Laden is winning time over time ...

send more soldiers in , send in B2 which are just unusable in afg , send the biggest guns money can buy ...

it will only spread a little more the martyrdom culture of this very few ones ...!

if we want to win (i don't think it is possible anyway , Afghans fighters have never been defeated before , British tried for a very long time = they failed ; Soviets tried = they failed [they had almost unlimited fire-power and no pretentious to stick to human rights])
simple = build hospital , schools , irrigation system , roads , anything that can turn population toward us , not throwing them into taleebans arms out or despair !

fred said...

Monsieur Shane :

That way, when the next war comes along (that's actually worth fighting) you're not stuck with old crap from the last one. ...

How damn right you are !!

the 1rst World War started on the french side with uniforms of the previous war (1870)

soldiers were dressed in Shinny blue top with flashy red pants ...

until someone in top used his brain a bit to find out : it made them perfect target , even better than in the shooting range ...!

at beginning of the 2nd World war :
the French Army was ready for the 1rst ...

still "on paper" it was the best and most powerful army in the world ...

when the Nazis got their hands free of the polish problem , the best world army got wiped out in 3 weeks (mind you , the britts was there as well ...)

the nazis only came from where they were not expected to come from ...

the best ?
let's try to live peacefully and stop wasting masses of money onto unneeded gears !

WhyTech said...

"I believe that in each case at least one engine was able to be restarted before a dead-stick landing had to be accomplished."

One of these did result in a dead stick landing. Here is a snippet from AIN:

"In the November incident, the crew of Beechjet 400A N691TA experienced a double engine flameout at FL380 on a positioning flight from Indianapolis International Airport to Marco Island Airport, Fla. An NTSB preliminary report said the Beechjet crewmembers subsequently made two restart attempts and an air-start attempt before deadsticking the twinjet to a safe landing at Jacksonville International Airport, Fla. "

Troglodyte said...

WhyTech: I stand corrected.

All the more reason for pilots of multi-engine aircraft to be realistic about the small, but clearly nonzero possibility of a complete power loss. Although I personally fly and prefer multi-engine aircraft, I do not delude myself into thinking that I will always have engine power. Or electrical power. Or hydraulics.......

--Trog

WhyTech said...

"All the more reason for pilots of multi-engine aircraft to be realistic about the small, but clearly nonzero possibility of a complete power loss. "

Strongly agree. There are emergencies worth training for, and others where there is nothing the pilot can do. If one thinks about the most adverse emergencies possible, the list might look something like this (most adverse to less adverse):
1. Structural or systems failure rendering the acft uncontrollable (eg wing separation): little point in training for this.
2. Major fire: pilot intervention may improve outcome - worth training for
3. Total loss of all propulsion: pilot intervention may improve outcome - worth training for
4. All other emergencies: pilot intervention may improve outcome - worth training for.

There have been enough total power losses in miltiengine acft, including large turbine acft, to make this a no brainer in my estimation, expecially in older acft with complex fuel systems where fuel mismanagement is a well known cause of such incidents/accidents.

airtaximan said...

Captain Sullinberger

Troglodyte said...

Yes.

And Canada’s Air Transat Airbus A330 which glided about 120 miles without engine power before dead-stick landing in the Azores. Complex fuel system with combination of mechanical failure (leak) and systems mismanagement. Survivable with training!!

I have honestly not considered or trained for glide back to airport after dual engine failure in a turboprop or jet. Possible reasons for this emergency could include bird ingestion or contaminated fuel. In a FADEC equipped aircraft you could add electrical and/or FADEC failure as befell the Diamond Twin-Star (DA42). Everything designed, conceived, and constructed by a human can fail.

I suspect that a no power return to the airport might be easier in a jet, which generally glide better than in a turboprop and in which you don’t have to go through steps of situational recognition, assimilation, and affirmative action of feathering both engines (assuming no autofeather), and then figure out the stick-and-rudder as well as navigational issues to get back to a runway. Better hope for VMC.

--Trog

Troglodyte said...

CORRECTION: I have not trained for return to airport in the event of a dual engine failure immediately after takeoff.

I have, like Black Tulip, done simulator training for dual flameout in a jet at altitude with gliding descent to the airport at each simulator training session.

--Trog

WhyTech said...

"Captain Sullinberger"

Capt. S. did a beautiful job and deserves all the recognition he has received. I wonder what the outcome would have been, however, had the wx been 200 & 1/2 instead of good VFR? It would seem that he was still below the minimum turnback altitude when the power failure occurred and didnt have the option to return to the departure runway/airport.

Seems like the most visible "saves" of larger turbine acft with total engine failures have been made by experienced glider pilots.

gadfly said...

gadfly said... These numbers may be significant in the near future . . . when new numbers come in, and we begin to see a “curve” in the data.

The data is meaningful now, since several on the blog lament that a majority of the fleet is not flyable. This is obviously false. The fleet is flying just fine. A few individual aircraft do have some parts issues though, which is to be expected without a company to supply them. But overall reliability and serviceability does prevail.

Ken Meyer said...

Yessir...

Climbout

Cruise

Ken

Baron95 said...

airtaximan said... Baron, I like your new economic theory... where profits, decent products and the like are irrelevant.
Seems to contradict you theories last week.
============================

As Ken said, you are confusing macro economics with micro economics.

For the overall economy velocity of money is key, and profits by individual companies are only second order benefits. [though I made it very clear the advantages of productive use of capital]

For an individual company, sustained profitability is key.

Seems a pretty obvious distinction, no?

For example, for the overall economy, the fact that GM and United airlines are buying, selling products and services is a a plus, even if they are losing billions a quarter. For their shareholders, on the other hand, that is not so good. That is why your chief decided to save GM, because it provides an economic benefit to the overall economy even a a perennial money losing mess. (well that and pay back for the mid-west unions).

And as for keeping your $2M under the mattress, what benefit does that provide you, other than the pleasure of looking at it and impressing some cheap girls? You, or your heirs will have to spend it someday to derive benefit.

Capiche?

Baron95 said...

Shane Price said...
Personally, I'd prefer that my kids avoided all warlike activity.
===================

Then, make sure the military of your country is so far superior to that of any potential adversary, that they would not dare to go to war with you.

======================
But it's a bit like the Panzer Mark VI, known to history as the 'Tiger'. They're simply weren't enough of them to deal with 90,000+ Shermans and T-34/38's
========================
Not really. The tiger never achieved even a 3 to 1 kill against a T-38 or Sherman.

The F15 with AWACS and US tactics can probably sustain a 15 to 1 kill ratio against most adversaries.

The F-22 combined with its new tactics is a greater than 100 to 1 in air supremacy combat.
================
“The art of war is simple enough. Find out where your enemy is. Get at him as soon as you can. Strike him as hard as you can, and keep moving on.”
====================
Sorry Shane. You should know history a bit better. In the civil war (a minor largely localized war), 620,000 Americans A FULL TWO PERCENT OF THE POPULATION was killed using the above tactics. That, stopped being acceptable a long, long time ago.
=========================
If I was you guys, I'd build lots of cheap stuff and replace it with new cheap stuff, quickly.
======================

Again, you don't get it. Americans place a very, very, very high value on the life of an American war fighter. Much, much, much higher than any Al Quaeda, North Korean, Iranian, Chinese or Russians values their fighters.

Therefore, THE ONLY way acceptable for Americans to arm and prosecute wars is with overwhelming strategic, tactical, technological and training superiority.

Even a 1000 to 1 kill ration in localized conflicts (Iraq, Gulf War, etc) is not high enough for us. Our goal is to be very, very disproportionate. It is wot wipe out all opposing air assets without losing a single fighter. That IS OUR GOAL.

The F-22/Slammer-D puts us closer to that goal than any other weapon systems.

Baron95 said...

All the more reason for pilots of multi-engine aircraft to be realistic about the small, but clearly nonzero possibility of a complete power loss.
================
I think we can all agree with this statement Trog/Whytech.

Baron95 said...

WhyTech said...
Capt. S. did a beautiful job and deserves all the recognition he has received. I wonder what the outcome would have been, however, had the wx been 200 & 1/2 instead of good VFR?
=========================

Much better actually. Geese do not fly IFR in the clouds - so they would not be at 2,000 ft. So the flight would not have hit any geese and would have landed in Charlotte on schedule.

[p.s. side note - I took that exact same flight 6 days before the accident - only time I flew USAir in the past 10 years, and I was crossing a bridge on the other side of Manhattan when it was fist reported in the water - the radio announcer said it as a 4 engine A380, which I knew was wrong]

WhyTech said...

"Much better actually. Geese do not fly IFR in the clouds - so they would not be at 2,000 ft. So the flight would not have hit any geese and would have landed in Charlotte on schedule."

I was absolutely sure that some smart ass would post this response. I fully expected it to be Ken. Perhaps you just beat him to the send button. My apology to Ken in case he had no such thoughts or intentions.

In considering my question, just assume that the engines quit in IMC at exactly the same time for whatever reason.

fred said...

Then, make sure the military of your country is so far superior to that of any potential adversary, that they would not dare to go to war with you. ...

NO !

you only attract lunatics to pick on a fight ...!

Terrorists have a very weird way of winning ...

as soon as you change your life a iota = they won !

since you know so well military = your example is crap !

the soviets have demonstrated it in WW2 , one rifle and 5 men ,when the first get killed , the second pick-up the rifle and so on ...

much later 9/11 has confirmed it !

having a kill ratio is nothing , having a goal is everything ...hence you need a goal and the temper to pay the "price" for achieving it !

i have always been very amused by peoples stating such non-sens while never risked their own life in any conflict ...

airtaximan said...

ghandi

airtaximan said...

"And as for keeping your $2M under the mattress"

I think this is a good idea compared to buying an EA50... which as you said, MIGHT impress a cheap girl.. the $ in the mattress certainly will not... and I do not care about this...

Its always been interesting for me to hear macro and micro economics - and now you have sliced it 4 ways...

Micro=EA50 as a plane, MAcro is EAC the company...

And

Micro is a company and macro is a country or economic system.

All I can say is, I think I understand your theory - good luck with that... no matter how youslice it, I would prefer $2M in cash than an EA50.

By the way, if you need to think like this to buyan EA50... I think the market is smaller than even I thought. ;)

airtaximan said...

EWS,

nice post -- makes 100% sense, and a good reminder that these planes are flying.

I have made one grave error in my feelings about the EA50... I do not consider it a viable plane for revenue, and it makes no sense economically... never did. EXCEPT if you like the plane, warts and all, and want to fly it knowing it was kluged together, and lacks real company support today... it is tantamount to an experimental, IMO... and if that's OK with you... heck who can argue with you?

It was not developed for this purpose, but if some hobbiest find it fun to fly and know the risks... I guess that's a market.

Troglodyte said...

B95:


I would not be so sure that birds do not fly in the clouds. In poking around I found that this is relatively rare, but reported.

As a quick reference look at at ASRS Database: Bird or Animal Strike Reports

Searching this document for IMC will show several documented strikes in IMC. Further conditions are not clearly specified.

Another article that seems to suggest that birds may be able to fly in clouds without visual references: Flight Without Horizon Referenced in European Starlings.

Anyone have more information?

--Trog

PawnShop said...

The F15 with AWACS and US tactics can probably sustain a 15 to 1 kill ratio against most adversaries.

The F-22 combined with its new tactics is a greater than 100 to 1 in air supremacy combat
.

The F-22 statistics you provide are entirely theoretical, and subject to the manipulation of those who have advanced them.

The F-15 IN FACT has a 100 to 0 kill ratio in air combat. Look it up.

The F-22 is a lovely, and highly capable bird. But it's a mighty 'spensive bird, and those who believe that the money could be better spent elsewhere have a point that must be considered rationally.

DI

Baron95 said...

ATM said....no matter how youslice it, I would prefer $2M in cash than an EA50.
========================
You and I both. Is there anyone else who would think differently at THIS time?

The point is that Ken's $1.xM was not destructed like Gad said or incinerated like Shane likes to say. It is still circulating in the economy and his has a Jet in the hanger on top of that.

That is not such a bad thing. It is not how I'd choose to spend my money, but still, not too bad a thing for the economy.

Baron95 said...

Troglodyte said... B95:


I would not be so sure that birds do not fly in the clouds.
====================
Just as WhyTech, I was waiting for someone to point that out.

So, more details.

Birds in question where Canada Geese, flying formation with a flight leader and a v-formation. Those birds, take off (typically from water) as a group, visually and by sound calls. And they don't fly into clouds and would not fly into a 200 ft solid overcast.

Second point, freezing level was at the surface on that very cold day. Any birds flying in a solid overcast (moisture) and 2,000 ft, and freezing temps, would prob freeze over and spin in ;)

So, not only were the geese not IFR equipped, they were not FIKI equipped.

Doubtful they'd be able to sustain IFR flight in icing conditions for long ;)

As to WhyTech's more serious question. I think a plane equipped with Synthetic Vision and Enhanced vision, would have a substantially similar chance of a safe landing.

Without that, an airplane with waterways depicted graphically and with good detail in a moving map, would have a fighting chance of lining up for a water landing.

Failing that, and considering that obstacles in the NYC metro area are up to 1,000 ft AGL, it is doubtful that the flight would successfully avoid hitting something before breaking out at 200 with a 1/2, and even if it did, would prob be too late to avoid hitting solid things in the last 200 ft.

Just my opinion.

SVS, EVS should, over time, become standard for IFR ops.

Baron95 said...

Dave Ivedorne said...
The F-15 IN FACT has a 100 to 0 kill ratio in air combat. Look it up.
==========================

Over a very small (and insignificant) sample AND not against the opponents (NK, China, Russia), time frame (20 years from now) and scenarios (deep airspace supremacy) I am describing.

You are absolutely correct that the F22 Kill ratio against presently simulated or practices targets is purely theoretical.

BUT, using your own words against you, if the F15 has a 100 to 0 kill ratio, and the F22 has over a 10-1 kill ratio over the F-15, some, overly simplistic minds may conclude a 1000 to 0 kill ratio of the F22 against the engagements you describe.

That is the right direction. 1000 to 1 or better.

1 American pilot killed for every 1000 enemy pilots or better. That is what we need to think, assuming enemies equipped with next gen Stealthy Russian fighters.

WhyTech said...

"As to WhyTech's more serious question. I think a plane equipped with Synthetic Vision and Enhanced vision, would have a substantially similar chance of a safe landing."

Something we can agree on. And with the current cost of SVS/EVS within easy reach of individual owner pilots, no reason not to have it.

Shane Price said...

Baron,

The 'kill' ratio for 'Tiger v Sherman' is one to five. It's now generally recognized that the key factor (post 1943) in shifting the balance of advantage to the Allies and away from the Axis was a 'knowledge transfer', not a simple technical one.

Classic example. Both Arthur "Bomber" Harris and his American counterpart in Europe, Henry "Hap" Arnold were convinced that aircraft would win the war. Harris fixed his sights on German cities, which he wanted to level, and Arnold decided that precision daylight attacks on 'oil and transportation targets'.

Both achieved considerable success.

But neither 'won the war'. Russian, American, British and a vast host of individual soldiers defeated Germany (and Italy) by the age old practice of marching across them.

By August 1945, before the first atomic weapon was detonated over Hiroshima, the Japanese were desperately seeking to end a hopeless contest against vastly greater numbers. In many ways, the atom bombs provided an excuse to allow Japan end the war.

But the ordinary Japanese civilian didn't understand they'd been beaten until the occupying army arrived to take control of the country.

Again, it might appear that pure technology won that war. But the fact is that boots on the ground actually did the job.

It's possible that future wars will all be fought between UAV's. The video game generation would, no doubt, appreciate that.

However, I'm with U.S. Grant on this one.

Never forget that civil wars always generate horrific casualty rates, precisely because they tend not to be very 'civil'. It's fair to speculate that the 'war between the states' was also the first in history dominated by rifle fire, which made the battlefield 'killing zone' 1,000 yards' wide, instead of 100.

By it's very nature, a rifled round will cause much more serious internal injuries than a musket ball, increasing the killing range of each soldier by a factor of 10.

Nothing, however, compares to the depopulation effected by both sided during WWII. Some was genocidal, a considerable amount was a 'byproduct' (starvation, disease etc) but a huge proportion was direct exposure to bombing (strategic or tactical) and the fighting on the ground. Losses were particularly acute in the city battles.

In Lennigrad alone, more than one million civilians died. The tiny French town of Caen suffered almost 7,000 dead and wounded in June and July 1944. At the end in Berlin, something like 100,000 German women, along with very old or very young men, died. The list goes on....

Most of America recovered from the effects of it's 'civil' war within a generation.

Parts of Europe are still not fully regenerated, 65 years later.

Now, what exactly did any of this have to do with the 787?

Shane

julius said...

baron95,

SVS, EVS should, over time, become standard for IFR ops.


do you really need SVS, when flying IFR in IMC under radar and ATC surveillance?
When do you deviate from the ATC routes during an IFR flight?

EVS is nice on the airport, but what about an a/p which steers the a/c on the airport? The clearance will be transmitted from ATC to the a/c. Download of depature clearances is/ was already tested! The "pieces" are already available!

HUD for everybody - cars included (is "now" standard for the 787!)?

Julius

Anonymous said...

"do you really need SVS, when flying IFR in IMC under radar and ATC surveillance?
When do you deviate from the ATC routes during an IFR flight?"

Here in New Mexico radar coverage (and even radio reception with ATC) is far from guaranteed. When operating at night or in IMC to mountainous airports SVS is an easy backup that is available today. People deviate from their assigned routes because of human error- I would imagine the rate of this has reduced with simpler navigation tools, but it will never go to zero.


"HUD for everybody - cars included (is "now" standard for the 787!)?"

I've never flown with a HUD, but a few crews that I know say they use it in the sim and then never again. A corporate or private operator is probably just not going to see that many approaches down to a point where it is required. But if I had to guess I'd bet that Cirrus would be the first to offer a piston single with a HUD! It would revolutionize the way people get lost in Cirri.

WhyTech said...

"I have, like Black Tulip, done simulator training for dual flameout in a jet at altitude with gliding descent to the airport at each simulator training session."

Had an opportunity to do this in a NWA 747-200 sim several years ago. The instructor (a good friend) was a sadist. He would put me in the left seat, position the airplane on the runway, crank the wx down to 200 & 1/2 and say "Your airplane!" Then he would fail an outboard engine at rotation.

The dead stick landing in the 747 sim was not a big deal VFR.

Baron95 said...

julius said...
do you really need SVS, when flying IFR in IMC under radar and ATC surveillance?
===========================

What is the number one fatal accident cause in IFR flying? CONTROLLED FLIGHT INTO TERRAIN - CFIT. From single pilots to experienced flight crews (like the AA 757 that flew into a mountain), it is the number one killer.

Radar coverage, rarely extends to the ground or even 1000 AGL, and separation of aircraft from terrain is not the primary ATC job.

SVS/EVS will (I think) provide a substantial increase in safety and corresponding reduction of CFIT for IFR, marginal day VFR and night VFR flights.

fred said...

By August 1945, before the first atomic weapon was detonated over Hiroshima, the Japanese were desperately seeking to end a hopeless contest against vastly greater numbers. In many ways, the atom bombs provided an excuse to allow Japan end the war. ...

Monsieur Shane :

it is even worse than you wrote ...

the first atomic bombing was released as a "live experiment" !

Japaneses at this time didn't have anything to eat for a long period (some historian say about a year )

the "story" that an invasion of Japan would cost life to millions of US soldiers was as sound as the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq !

if they would have wanted to end the WW2 with less casualties , the US top brass just had to wait a bit ...

the apple would have fallen out of its own weight ! (which corroborate your post!)

but context was highly sensitive ...

Soviets had to be shown a "thing" to keep them from pushing westward at that time ... (the Red Army still had many times more soldiers than all allies together and all with a perfect field-experience )

as well the population needed some kind of revenge (which is exactly what did happen in a German city where 45.000 refuges were carpet-bombed by british royal air force when the city was clearly known for being a NON-military target full of civilians who had fled the Soviets ...)

all wars have their black sides and untold , the worst of it being this kind , it only plant the seeds of future confrontation and bloodshed !

USA alone spend more than all other countries together in military spendings = did it prevent 9/11 ? brought peace in Iraq ? served to find out the whereabouts of Ben-laden ?

nope !

so yes the money is circulating !
would this money better used on medicaid ? on free tuition in University ? or on anything ?

only a matter of choice , but with 48 states out of 50 on the verge of bankruptcy ...

i suppose priority have to be redefined !

Deep Blue said...

concerning technology, any thoughts about NextGen? Is it all it's cracked up to be? Good for GA?

FAA on the right track or is it going to be a union vote shop? Should FAA be privatized?

KnotMPH said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Baron95 said...

KnotMPH... Excellent account.

Not that the after the fact distasteful revision if history by Fred, needed any response.

I'll only add the most important fact of all.

The very country that was on the receiving end of the two atomic bombs is THE MOST LOYAL ALLY OF THE UNITED STATES IN ASIA and our economies are completely integrated.

Proof? Enter the Boeing 787 with wings and structures manufactured by the Japanese heavies (that were leveled by the B29s and rebuilt by our reconstruction plans) and who will (hopefully) enter service with All Nippon Airways (ANA), the launch order and the launch airliner for the B787.

THAT is the true measure of a superpower - one that Fred can't grasp. The very country and people that dragged us into war by a sneak attack and were pulverized by fierce combat, including the most awesome weapons of the time (B29/A-bomb), are admirers of our culture, one of our strongest allies, and have a completely integrated economy with ours.

And we should strive to do the same with China. Not fear them, like the union-black-mailed protectionists in congress.

But, we need to preserve the ability to defeat them in combat, just in case they take a Hitler/Hiroito/Stalin-like detour in history.

And that will require B2/F22/F35/Aim120-D weapons. Hopefully, some of them based in Japan.

chickasaw said...

I don't know if anyone has posted this info from the ICON AIRCRAFT website:
"As founder of Eclipse Aviation, Vern Raburn not only transformed transportation aviation, but has been the driving force behind the creation of the new "Very Light Jet" (VLJ) industry. Previously, Vern helped shape the course of the information technology revolution. In the mid 1970s he joined Bill Gates as one of the first employees at Microsoft Corporation and was responsible for the company's entry into retail. After Microsoft, he served as Executive VP and General Manager of Lotus Development Corporation, as Chairman and CEO of Symantec Corporation, and as President of the Paul Allen Group. As a pilot he has over 6,500 hours of flight time with multi-engine, instrument, commercial and rotary ratings. Vern also serves on the board of directors of the Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA)."

It seems as if another aircraft company is trusting him to be the director.

Baron95 said...

Oh, and it is also telling, that when discussion about exporting the F-22 comes up, Japan is pretty much at the top of the list as a candidate to get F-22s.

And some times it is a list of just one country. ;)

airsafetyman said...

Dwight David Eisenhower, 1963:“I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of ‘face.’”

julius said...

Baron95,
Japon

are there any Japonese soldiers helping the US in Iraq or Afghanistan?

I think Japon sent a vessel to the coast of Somalia...You know, Japoneses ships also pass that area!

If Lockheed Martin will ask the Japoneses to build the "wings" and the "center wing boxes", they might buy some F22s! Ohhh, that's too late.
Anyhow, Lockheed Martin will not sell any F22 to Japon without a countertrade!

Julius

P.S. SVS - if this means "intelligent" integration of further services like GWPS, TAWS, TCAS,...
on one screen in front of the pilot, then I agree to you.

airtaximan said...

part of my education is not from the US... and I can tell you, the whole world basically agrees with what Fred wrote.

Once again, the US is living its own self fulfilling prophecy in many cases, and the attitudes displayed here are simply circular reasoning.

One day, someone may say, "look Iraq is our best ally in the region" Just like what was once said of Iran... or Lebanon... or many South American countries...

Who cares, it just one form of an imposed situation, and its by and large resented, and as is the case with many cultures around the world. Might is not always right - it may be short term but for many reasons, it does not work.

Can I explain it all here and now, no... but I will categorically state that short term thinking regarding the world is what is being displayed here by some... and IMO, there are better answers.

BTW, they have nothing to do with arms.

Once again, micro and macro issues - but I think my macro issues are much more macro than some here can fathom, and they fit with the micro.... they are not seperate, and used as excuses for why one or the other do not make sense.

airtaximan said...

"The point is that Ken's $1.xM was not destructed"

blah, blah...

yes, it was destructed - he does not have it any longer... he has a money- pit that lost 1/2 its value or more in one year...

Everything else is academic.

gadfly said...

KnotMPH and baron95

Thank you, both, for your intelligent and well-thought-out commentaries.

Excellent!

gadfly

(Even in 1957, it was clear to me from what I saw, first hand, that Japan was fast becoming a true and lasting friend.)

Ken Meyer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fred said...

thanks ATM ...

i didn't write with a big smile on my ugly face !

it is NOT "distasteful revisionism" (gosh , i wonder HOW anyone can be blinded that much ?) ...

it is just the saying : "IF you want to have a future , you need to understand your past first!"

i know only too well that by being both french and german , we have a history which is very painful ...

do you really think that i am happy about the madness of Hitler ? or the simple fact that he used ONLY democratic apparatus to get in power ? (btw , my grand-mother died in a camp !) or that at some point most germans fellow had the arm raised ??

or the simple fact that while suffering hell during WW2 , frenchs did exactly the same few years after in Algeria ...

no , this is nothing anyone can be proud of !

still , is that a reason in itself to hide the truth ?

"if you do not understand your past , you are bound to live it again !"

i am really sorry for the kind like Baron ... they are so sure of their own strength , that it become their biggest weakness ...

ok , i prefer stop talking about this type of blindness ...

sounds like our Kenny when someone tries to explain him : he has wasted ONE Million $ ++ on something which may not fly for very long , anymore !

here i agree , for a million he got something ... Fpj or land plot on the Moon , what is the difference ?

fred said...

(it is my last comment on subject )

how are you going to explain in a few years to your great-grand-children the way WTC was destroyed ?

there is more and more indications that the whole truth about this dramatic event has been carefully covered up ...

personally , i never really believed into the (official)theory that jet-fuel burning at +/-600°C could melt steel melting at 1500°C ...

and if it didn't melt and got only deformed by the heat , how could the towers experience free-fall gravity speed ...

i not trying to do revisionism and point a finger on few ones ...

ONLY , that it is sometime VERY easy to manipulate public-opinion !

Exactly like in france everybody believe that Algeria was a defeat for the french army ...

very few knows the french national oil company (that became later Total) made a deal to keep on exploiting the Oil until 1974 (13 years after end of war)

military defeat ? no , good old business !!

fred said...

asm :

please read or listen to the last public speech Eisenhower made at the end of mandate ...

the guy had some hints in him of what would be future ...

a shame no one listened to him !

julius said...

Bonjour fred!


Hiroshima etc.


Shame on me - I didn't know that even the military had some doubts about the need to use the A-bombs!

Thus the use of atomic energy started with a lie and is still based on lies: "We will know how to store readiactive material in safe and unexpensive manner and where to store!"...


Julius

P.S. Total? I remember German jokes on losing a war and Japon...

Phil Bell said...

New "Headline Post" is up.

(A few hours premature, perhaps, but it will probably be the talk of the day, although perhaps not quite to the extent it was 40 years ago).

My thanks to Richard Aboulafia for permitting us to read his insightful July 2009 newsletter directly.

For more good analysis, please go to:
www.richardaboulafia.com

Beedriver said...

By the way, Jet fuel did not bring the WTC down. bureaucracy did. And our paper based society

The jet fuel only ignited the spectacular amount of paper and other combustibles in the floors the airplane hit.

If I remember right there was over 100 tons of paper in each floor in the WTC.

This is the normal way a steel building collapses. the steel softens and bends. you do not need to get to 1500 deg for this to happen. structural steel looses its strength very fast. Fire fighters hate steel buildings. they want an old wood beam building any time. it will keep its strength far longer than the equivalent strength steel building.
an additional factor was that the fire proofing on the steel was a sprayed on type that fell off the steel when it was subjected to the shock of the airplane hitting. They have now changed to different fireproofing that is shock resistant.

Perhaps this is a good argument for a paperless society.

«Oldest ‹Older   201 – 287 of 287   Newer› Newest»