What's the NeXT step in the continuing (after some pause) story of Eclipse Aviation?While we ourselves pause to contemplate that intriguing question, I'll answer the one for those wondering what the heck this cube thing is about: NeXT computers was a Steve Jobs thing back in the mid-1980's through mid-1990's. And seemingly, on into today, as (to a windows user) it appears MacOS X is evolved from the software developed for the NeXT platform. Pretty cool- I remember ogling over them "back in the day".
There does seem to be a bit of a similarity in the plot lines:
a) Computer whiz (Steve Jobs) gets rich guy (Ross Perot) to fund cutting edge (NeXT) tool for high tech breakthrough (DNA simulations).
b) Computer whiz (Vern Raburn) gets rich guy (Al Mann) to fund cutting edge (Eclipse) tool for high tech breakthrough (VLJ transportation revolution).
Take your pick, which one this applies to (hint- both):
"To avoid inventory errors, (Eclipse/NeXT) used the just in time (JIT) inventory strategy. The company contracted out for all major components such as (Wings/Motherboards) shipped to the first floor for assembly. "
Both Eclipse and NeXT featured advanced displays (pixel resolution advantage Eclipse: 1440 x 900 MFD with Avio-NG, 1120x832 for NeXT) relatively advanced processing power, and considerable attention placed on the user interface. Both wound up costing a bit more than expected, and never quite achieved the market shares anticipated, before going out of production.
And both featured some arguably advanced features, that, well, never quite caught on in their respective industries- the 2.88 MB floppy disk, which was nice, but wasn't worth the extra cost, and Friction Stir Welding, which, ah, well, you know the rest...
Reading the Wikipedia article, it amazing to consider just what heady times there were back in the Silicon Valley venture capital boom years. A dynamic environment- explosively dynamic in fact, compared to the rather staid ways of general aviation ways from the mid 1980's through mid 1990's. In that light, it is easy to see how a person familiar with both worlds, might sense the GA one was ripe for innovation and shakeup- dare I say- disruption!
The comparison is relatively shocking. Essentially, nothing was happening in personal aviation transportation during that period, aside from some "quirky" (odd similarity to the relationship to the word(?) "qwerty", which is pretty quirky compared to the Dvorac keyboard layout...) designs from Burt Rutan, etc.; while the Personal Computer/Information Technology world was, well, changing the world. (...Somewhat. Call me a Luddite -as those who use Apple computers no doubt will :) - I'm still not convinced calculators are a boon to an eight year old. But to allow a person to essentially have the world's library's at their fingertips is a flabbergasting advance. As is- almost- enabling adults, and eight year olds alike, to access our fine blog. (Although sometimes it's hard to tell the difference! Okay- just kidding again!! :). An interesting anecdote from Smart Computing, March 1999: A Brief History of Cyberspace:
"By the end of that year (1990), he (Berners-Lee ) had named the project "World Wide Web," created the first Web browser, and launched the World Wide Web on a NeXT computer at the CERN headquarters."
How did the finances work out for NeXT Computer, Inc.? I couldn't find the stock symbol, but in 1989 Canon paid $100M for 16.67%, so it was valued at about $600M. With inflation adjustments, that's about $1042M today. More or less what Eclipse probably shoulda/coulda/mighta been worth- once upon at time. When Apple bought NeXT in 1996, they shelled out $429M (about $600M in 2009 dollars), so it seems the original investors did pretty well. Steve Jobs got only stock, but at 1.5M shares, that was 1.19% of Apple. I believe it's split twice since then, at 1.5M x 2 x 2 x $170 (today's closing price), Steve-o would be sitting on about $1.020B. (Heck- he coulda bought Eclipse at it's peak! (...If he hadn't sold them...?) On the other hand, at the time of the NeXT buy out, those shares were worth around $15 x 1.5M = $22.5M, which is about what Al Mann forked out this time. Oh, the similarities are mind boggling. (So was the amount of cash Apple was burning back then!).
The NeXT adventure for Eclipse? Well, so far, it seems to be lacking some of the, ah, pizzazz, of the original (By the way, we seem to be missing some of the Karen Di Piazza's pizzazz as well):
From the same article as above, Flight Global, 13 March 2007;
"Announcing the new avionics team on 5 March (2007), Eclipse chief executive Vern Raburn said the changes would have 'absolutely no effect' on the delivery of an expected 402 aircraft this year...The Albuquerque, New Mexico-based airframer has delivered one aircraft since receiving its US Federal Aviation Administration certification in September (2006)...Raburn says Eclipse 500s delivered through the first half of the year with the Avidyne systems would be retrofitted with the Avio NG by year's end, a process he said would take less than 10 days".
Now THOSE were some pretty "heady" times as well...
* Can't Remember or Learn ?
* Can't Concentrate or Think Clearly ?
* Is Paranoid or Anxious ?
* Has Difficulty Keeping Track of Time ?
(Although I pity the fool with such afflictions- I think we all know...somebody...like that :)
So the question is, will M&M assemble the A team and succeed? While most of the Eclipse work force has probably dispersed over the months since production- and paychecks- stopped, let's hope so- I love it when a plan comes together!
(Okay, if you -really- want to see it-...the original A Team...but you'll probably wished you hadn't! :)
340 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 340 of 340Bear in mind that Judge Walrath only signed the final order yesterday, and the court posted it immediately.
Although the judge ruled some days ago at the hearing, her ruling included an instruction to the Trustee to work with the various parties to reach agreement on specific phraseology for the order, which obviously took some time.
Ken
B95 said "The other thing the (Boeing) CFO said is that they will take a $2.5M charge in 2Q (IIRC)."
I believe that's "Billion," no?
And agree; the "scrap" plan is a momentous additional "landmine" that got exposed in the overall program.
What it means in fact, is that Boeing hasn't actually built a 787 yet.
I'm going to say that again for my own benefit:
Boeing hasn't actually built a 787 yet.
Deep Blue, by your logic, Eclipse Aircraft never built an Eclipse 500, either. None of them conform to the promised original specs. Modifications by third parties eventually might bring them to the original specs (note that I said might), but not one fully functional Eclipse 500 ever left the factory under Eclipse Aircraft. Let me say that one more time: none.
And now back to VLJs... I'm surprised no one here commented on the NPRM the FAA issued recently on the certification of part 23 VLJs!!!
While still more onerous than the certification for piston planes, it brings certainty and eliminates a bunch of ELOS exemptions. It should greatly streamline the certification of light jets.
And most importantly it makes a distinction between jets with MTOW below 6,000 lbs (currently only the Eclipse) and heavier jets.
I think this is at least a good first step.
-------------
The proposed rule essentially requires turbofan-powered aircraft to meet the design, performance and certification standards of piston- and turboprop-powered aircraft in the next higher weight class. Thus very light jets (VLJs) with maximum takeoff weights (MTOW) under 6,000 lb would have to meet the performance requirements for piston twins weighing 6,000 lb to 12,499 lb. Light jets between 6,000 lb and 12,499 lb w0uld have to meet most of the requirements of FAR Part 23 Commuter Category aircraft with MTOWs between 12,500 lb and 19,000 lb, currently the upper limit for Part 23 aircraft. The changes will bring multiengine FAR Part 23 turbofan aircraft into closer alignment with the heavier FAR Part 25 jets.
Now, why the heck the FAA believes that a fan jet needs higher certification requirements than a prop jet is beyond me. But so be it. Certainty is better than confusion.
------------
Yes Deep Blue 2.5 Billion - thanks for the correction. In this day and age, aerospace programs are measured in Tens of Billions and government programs in Trillions or Tens of Trillions in case of our deficit.
Scrapping 3-6 $200M airliners seems...well...quaint...by comparison. ;)
TheShadow doesn't know... Let me say that one more time: none.
Actually there were at least three aircraft built by Eclipse that were fully equipped with FIKI and 1.5. They were S/N 266, 200, and Al Mann's.
And Deep Blue, re the 787, what surprised me the most is that they said NO COMMERCIAL VALUE.
I thought that, at the very least, they could have sold them as VIP aircraft - they have several on order. And VIPs don't typically have the same payload requirements and fly jus a few hundred hours/year, so higher fuel consumption is not a big deal.
The fact that they couldn't even be used for VIPs is shocking.
They must be really screwed up planes.
PT,
He said according to the original spec... do you do this on purpose, or do you honestly miss the point all the time?
Was S/N 266 ever delivered? The other two were modifications, right? Still, none of them meet the original specs since they don't have autothrottles, among other things. So none is still correct.
Well, $2.5Billion 'charge' at Boeing; not much different, really, than +$2B "charge" at Eclipse, is it?
I don't remember witnessing a program at Boeing that has had such difficulties as the 787; and not only difficulties but such uncertainties and for what appears to be a rather blase airplane with little real economic improvement over last-gen.
And now at this point, as an aviation professional,I would be very uncomfortable flying in the 787. The program management failures, the technology difficulties, a non-professional governance, scrapped aircraft and now, frankly, what looks like a rush job to get the thing in the air.
The sr. management team at Boeing strikes me as about as reliable as EAC's. Both under financial pressure; both following a financial exit plan; both making highly inconsistent announcements and over-promising on technology, cost, delivery.
Someone here said this will be the last date slip announcement by this management team. One would think so. But the Boeing sr. management and board team are tightly wound up in a mutual CYA mode and probably worried about liability (They're just employees; no real entrepreneurs there).
Actually DB, there is no way to directly compare the 10-year/$2.8B loss at Eclipse (a company which, right or wrong, sought to see annual sales of maybe $2B) to the $2.5B writeoff on the 787 propgram. Boeing is a profitable company that had '08 revenues of $68B.
In order to be even remotely comparable, Boeing would need to be running a loss on the order of $85B+, or more than 30 times worse than the admittedly pathetic performance on the 787 to-date.
Just goes to underscore the ridiculousness of trying to compare Eclipse to existing OEMs.
Coldwet: well, I'm obviously being argumentative; however, the comparison may be a bit more fair than you depict.
You would have to compare the 787 project as a unit P&L (no consolidation or co-mingling with other civil and/or defense revenues) and of course, you'd have to filter out Boeing's cross-subsidy among civil and military (which never gets done).
Moreover, if the 787 were "carved out" as a stand-alone project (or were a stock/equity pure play), the comparison with EAC may make Vern & Company look a lot more competent (or at least perhaps merely unfortunate).
Like all conglomerates/industrials such as Boeing, bad management can hide a lot longer behind the shields of consolidated revenue and especially, accounting versus cash financial treatment. The 787 is a bankrupt venture, hidden by Boeing's various legacy products and DOD largess.
If Boeing and the 787 were a start-up venture, McNerney and crew would be right along side Vern in the Montana wilderness chopping wood and sprouting a beard (and hitchhiking a ride with Vern in the back seat of his E500).
baron95 said: And now back to VLJs... I'm surprised no one here commented on the NPRM the FAA issued recently on the certification of part 23 VLJs!!!
No surprise there. It is based on a one year old recommendation:
http://www.oig.dot.gov/StreamFile?file=/data/pdfdocs/WEB_FILE3_IG_Statement_on_Eclipse_Certification_CC_2008_120.pdf
If anything, they have taken their time.
Deep Blue earlier made a comment that could well be the epitaph of many once great organizations when their founders are no longer present, and new management is “hired”:
“They’re just employees; no real entrepreneurs there.”
It is a rare thing for a second generation to have that combination of inventive and manufacturing genius, combined with the drive and business motivation that only comes from the gardener, who tilled the land, planted the fields, and whose very life depends on the crop at harvest.
gadfly
gadfly,
A very smart person once told me:
"Beware of those who have never worked with their hands"
The reason was, a big construction company owed me money, and were not paying. I had a meeting with the CEO, and it was obvious to me something was "missing". It was all too easy for him to dismiss the hard work my employees and I had done, and make (lame) excuses.
I am not saying managers cannot be god managers, but in my opinion, someone who has never worked with their hands, will never really understand...
Frequently a proper balance of working with the hands and the head is required. When this issue goes awry in families, it leads to a wonderful quote:
"From shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations."
Well... CW.... so far...Vern and the EA500 are way....way....ahead of Bair...and Shanahan...and the 787 as a program. Of course I expect things to change in the future, but for now...lets see...
You claim Eclipse/Vern incinerated $2.5B in 10 years. Well The 787 program just incinerated $2.5B GAAP in one day.
Japanese heavies delivered 260+ sets of conforming wings to Eclipse. Japanese heavies delivered ZERO sets of conforming wings to the 787.
Eclipse has flown the EA500 with two engines from two manufacturers the second they became available. Boeing has yet to fly the 787 with ANY of the engine, both of which have been available and waiting for 2 years.
Eclipse was smart enough to have contracts that did not require penalties for delay. Boeing will be paying billions in delay penalties in addition to providing interim lift.
Eclipse did not scrap any production plane. Boeing scrapped 3 and counting.
Vern may have over promised a bit at Oshkosh. Boeing from Chaiman to BCA CEO on down claiming in June at Paris airshow that plane would fly in 2 weeks, only to tell us one week later that they had no idea when it would fly.
Vern may have artificially pushed first flight with the Williams engine to claim a milestone. Boeing rolled out a plane with Home Depot fasteners and duct tape with great fanfare and, with a straight face, claimed it would fly a month later - never made it.
The 787 program, has cost Boeing an estimated $20B+ according to Morgan Stanley, with penalties, delays and order cancellations ahead.
Eclipse's board took action and fired the CEO and forced a CH11 filing. Boeing's board kept the losing management team and continues to pour money into the pit with no improved results.
Boeing canceled one of the launch planes the 787-3. Eclipse did not cancel any planes.
Eclipse delivered 260+ planes, achieved certification in the US, EU, Australia, etc... Boeing??? Still throwing money in the pit...
Yes, we can assume that USING PROFITS FROM OTHER PROGRAMS Boeing will eventually right the ship.
But as of today, the Eclipse, Vern and team are way, way ahead of the the 787 program, Bair, Shanahan and all the other excellent management team.
And the Meyrs and the Manns are way, way, way ahead of ANA - They are flying their plane. Poor ANA has to fly 747s on 1 hr flights for more years to come. Poor ANA, the plane they wanted the 787-3 was canceled. They have to fly a 8,000nm airliner on 1hr trips.
See.... if you choose the right metrics, you can compare anything to anything ;)
Now some back of the envelope accounting for the 787-8 program....
Lets say when all is said and done, Boeing spends an extra $5B on the 787-8 in penalties, R&D, etc for a total of $25B. There are roughly 500 787-8 on order. Excluding engines and interior fittings (which is revenue Boeing does not hold on to) and considering launch discounts, at best Boeing is capturing $100M per frame. Giving them a generous 10% margin, that is $10M profit per plane.
So the 500 787 on order will net $5B or 20% of the investment. So Boeing has to sell and deliver another 2,000 or so 787-8s to break even.
Note that I am being very generous, ignoring the cost of money, etc.
Will they make it?!!???
When will they make it. When will Boeing deliver 787-8 ZN2503 (remember first 3 are scrap)?
Now, what if instead of throwing $25B into the 787 program, Boeing had given those $25B to Goldman Sachs for investing in say their Oil trading unit?
Would they have $50B? $75B? Would shareholder be better off?
Even if they just bough T-notes. That $25B would be $33B now. As a shareholder of Boeing, would you rather have $33B in cash or the 787 program as it currently sits?
Tricky, huh?
Baron:
A brilliant (and entertaining) write up on Boeing v. Eclipse. Most impressive (and accurate). One of your best, I think.
A good summary on the 787 situation by design news August 24 issue.
http://www.designnews.com/article/328736-What_s_Causing_Huge_Delays_for_the_Boeing_787_Dreamliner_.php
http://www.designnews.com/article/316208-Boeing_s_Dreamliner_Struggles_Surprise_or_Predictable_.php
It appears that the primary problem they think is the number of suppliers and the inability to coordinate them compounded by the problem that the design tools are not powerful enough to really predict the loads. thus when they get into test they find problems and need to fix them the problems with the attach points on the center wing box are not trivial. these are large structures build by different contractors from Japan the responsibility for the design and testing is shared and thus problematical.
B95: re: your write up on 787 economics viz corporate NPV.
Right. Of course, aviation has rarely been a + NPV proposition (this ignores very long term ROI and social capital).
But given the game Boeing is playing (corporate finance) these current employees(sr. management and BOD) should have been out a long time ago.
Looks like a market failure in management and takeovers.
Let's not lose perspective that Eclipse went bankrupt but Boeing is a viable company and has been for a very long time.
The sale of Eclipse Aviation Corp. is expected to be finalized tomorrow (Monday), setting the stage for Eclipse Aerospace to open the doors on Tuesday.
So, in the blog's time honored tradition, I'll delay the next headline post until-
TUESDAY.
:)
Flyfishdave,
Someone would like to chat with you- I'll forward their contact info if you drop me an email at:
aviationcritic@gmail.com
Cheeky Troll
Seems that I, like gadfly, have been a victim of 'stolen identity'.
A 'Legal Actions Snippet', posted by a 'Shane Price' on August 28, 2009 at 4:46 AM was not from me.
Check out the Google profile by clicking on the name. Neither of my profiles were used to make this comment.
Just to be clear, I have no current information about legal actions involving EAC or EA.
Shane
Baron, I could try and explain that if you consider Boeing as a large congolomerate with mostly related disciplines it is a fair comparison to Eaclipse's attempt to become an airframer, software house, avionics developer and fire suppression supplier, but being a self-approved master of aerodynamics, business, engineering, flying, government regulation and all other subjects foreign and domestic I am sure you would convince yourself that you know more about all these things than I do.
My point is Boeing is a large, successful and profitable company, and like all other near disasters in its' storied 93 year history, it will survive this one too.
Yes the 787 appears to be a collosal problem now, and I agree that heads should roll for the errors in judgement that are publicly known (imagine what is not and probably should not be known in the public). As a specific program it may never make a lot of money, but selling price in the commercial aviation world has surprisingly little to do with program profitability.
EAC held itself out to be a mini-Boeign, it sought to do many things, and it failed as V1.0 and V2.0.
Assuming the sale closes this week, we will see if V3.0 has better luck, maybe third time really is a charm.
My sources tell me that Boeing will sell the first three 787 R&D ships as VIP aircraft after certification. So much for scrapping them. Apparently the reports of Boeing's demise is overly exaggerated.
Back to the show here on the blog -- please continue telling us how much better Eclipse Aerospace is than Boeing. As the fly-by faithful said back in the day: I am amused.
WT,
"Who let the Goat out of his cage? ;-)"
I'm a beneficiary of the tax revenue shortfall- the asylums are turning the inmates loose! (Not sure if they are let out of South Carolina or not though... :)
(No doubt this will make Baron think twice about the importance of tax revenue generation! :)
I was always kind of surprised the first few flight test articles were refurbished and sold. But, apparently it is standard practice for Boeing, as Baron pointed out.
Regarding the first three (or so) 787 airframes, I had expected that if they could not be sold to customers, they'd be dedicated to either in-house VIP (or, not-so-V and not-so-I P transport; and maybe People and Parts). I figured it might be too expensive to come up with unique maintenance manuals for three airplanes, but maybe in-house Boeing maintenance, that are used to maintaining non-conforming flight test articles, might continue to service them.
What is also standard practice, is to lease back the first (or more) delivered airplanes for subsequent testing (I think Eclipse did this with David Crowe as well), so the near term effect would be not so large, especially considering that the airplane is brand new. And maybe these three test articles could be “chopped” and stretched, or shrunk for future model development. Also, maybe used for the upcoming Air Force tanker program, or Air Force One demonstrator/sales device. Plus, with Boeing's far-flung operations, just plane for hauling parts around.
Considering that most of the components could be taken off (?and I think reused?), such as engines, landing gear, avionics, and a lot of structural items that DO conform, it seemed like not quite a catastrophe. I think it is significantly, ah, less significant, than the two year delivery slip.
My guess on the first flight/etc. Competition- since Boeing announced with firm conviction that the 787 will fly this year, that Jan 2010 is the month.:).
Okay, since the management team will use a bunch of Chinook CH-47's to lift it if necessary to get first flight off this year, I'll give them:
First flight in December 2009.
TC in November 2010
First Revenue Flight in Jan 2011
Number of airframes that fly in 2010: six
Extra Credit: First flight of the second airframe, in January 2010.
Hi Baron,
Thanks for posting the videos of the 787 taxi tests- that's pretty exciting. But when I read Boeing management announce a few days later that first flight would be "this year", I realized it was probably a publicity/morale boosting (for stockholders as well as employees) exercise. A-ha! Another stunt, (“worthy” -ahem- of the old Eclipse Aviation Corp. Too bad we all that was missing was Wedge announcing it was almost ready to fly).
It sure looks pretty though!
(And I think it will be a great commercial success, even if it IS a couple of years, more or less- mostly, more, late. With the economy being “down”, I doubt if the airlines are all that upset- thankfully for all involved).
The slip/sliding away (musical interlude) of the 787 schedule reminds me -a little- of the A380 schedule.
As I recall, the A380 flight test program went okay, but entry into service had the big delay, due to production line snags and immature documentation- electrical systems in particular, if I recall. (Not sure I do! But there was some planning situations, which lead to the 2 year delay on EOS).
It will be interesting to see how Airbus executes on the A350 program. (I guess it was pretty goofed up, but seems like they're getting their house in order).
Epic Air will enter bankruptcy; aircraft owners want to revive company - from PilotMall.com
A federal court action has Bend, Ore.-based Epic Air moving one step closer to bankruptcy, now that a separate organization known as a receiver has been named to take charge of Epic's assets. Epic quietly laid off all of its workers in two waves earlier this year, shutting its doors this month when it fell behind on lease payments for its building, the Bend Bulletin reported. Epic's owners have not spoken publicly since earlier this summer, after one buyer of an Epic LT sued after his plane was not completed on time. At the time, the company's management insisted that it had enough cash on hand to keep operating. But Epic has gotten no new orders in the last year, former employees said. Owners of the Epic LT single engine turboprop, an experimental aircraft, say the design is viable and they want to find a way to get the company up on its feet again. There are about 35 registered Epic LTs in operation, according to the FAA's aircraft registry database.
Wait a minute!
First, this is an experimental aircraft that is supposed to be amateur built, not built by the kit provider. I wonder how many hours Gunner put into "watching" them build his plane to qualify for the 51% rule. Is the FAA really going along with this?
Second, the company "had gotten no new orders in the last year." It also seems that Gunner's plane was financed/subsidized by all those customers that placed orders after him. Gunner went from one Ponzi scheme to another one.
This sounds all to familiar.
PT, your interpretation of the Epic situation is truly sick and so far off the mark it is hardly deserving of comment other than to point out that you apparently think Eclipse WAS a ponzi scheme.
Gunner fully paid for his plane, and when it became obvious that the monies fully paid-in were not going to complete his plane he took action.
Who do you think FORCED Epic into receivership?
I know there is precious little room in that tea-cup Chihuahua brain of yours for facts, but comparing Gunner's behavior when faced with the same realization that went through the heads of the last 50-100 EA-500 owners, to say that of Col. Press (making rosy predictions and market reports into the late FALL last year) is to demonstrate the mental gymnastics necessary to maintain your position as the poster who has contributed the least value to the blog perhaps since Alexa and Ringtail.
When it became obvious that lies were being told and that things were not as they were being represented, Gunner COULD have remained quiet and hoped that progress payments on the 10 planes behind his would eventually pay for the PT-6 and other components, and I think it probably would have, BUT HE DIDN'T DO THAT.
In order to PREVENT others from falling prey to what was at that point a failing business plan, he took action.
The difference is clear to anyone with an open mind.
The gutter sniping reveals your character, and the picture frankly ain't pretty.
ColdWetLackOfJudgement said... The difference is clear to anyone with an open mind.
Ah yes. You see SO clearly. That would be why you had such high praise for for the likes of Rick "No Where to be Found" Schrameck.
Hi Shane,
Thank you for pointing out the "spoof" post on Aug 28, along with pointing out Gadfly's spoofed post.
I find it discouraging that anyone does this sort of thing- kind of like writing obscenities on the blackboard during recess...
As Shane notes, when in doubt, click on the name to bring up the profile. While those contents might be faked as well, it's more trouble. (Also, the "joined on" date would be a good indicator)
Yes PT, I made a mistake, which I have manned up to BTW - I was impressed with what Epic was trying to do, I like the plane, and I think with adult supervision in place things may well play out to the better.
Once it was clear though that I had been lied to, and that others had been lied to, I MANNED UP TO IT, and so did Gunner.
Once it was clear what was going on, I challenge you to show where anything Gunner or I said or did was in any way supportive of the continuation of the status quo in Bend? Because I can point you to countless examples where certain people made preposterously supportive statements about Eclipse when the buzzards had already landed and the glue factory was on the way - examples from poseters here, as well one of the men who now seeks to lead the Eclipse community out of the darkness.
You can try and make hay out of it but the fundamental difference is I have acknowledged the issues, and made clear that I made a mistake - something posters from the 'other' side of the EAC debate have largely failed to do. Every time you do it it simply makes your lack of contribution here more obvious.
I remain hopeful for the Epic designs, for the folks who were working there, and for the folks who have paid for planes whether they have already received a finished plane or not.
But I acknowledged my error in judgement, and I am working to help address the fallout there, as I did for the failure of Eclipse.
What you seem to fail to comprehend is that my ego and reputation are not injured by admitting mistakes, they are enhanced - in order to be trustworthy, one must be able to honestly admit failure or error as well as shout out the achievements. But admittedly that takes a certain mental and emotional maturity and self confidence that is, sadly, not present in abundance in my experience.
ColdWet said... You can try and make hay out of it but the fundamental difference is I have acknowledged the issues
Yes, after the doors were closed.
CWMOR sez:
"I know there is precious little room in that tea-cup Chihuahua brain of yours for facts..."
And you have the chutzpah to berate other posters for making personal attacks!?
By the way, thanks for letting us know that making a mistake, then admitting it, enhances your ego. That explains a lot.
RR, I made that statement out of frustration at the abject lack of value and constant personbal attacks from PT's posts, but your point is well taken, I will not insult chihuaha's in the future.
My point about ego was that admitting a mistake does not crush me, self-honesty is key IMO to being able to behave ethically and morally - YMMV, see Eclipse or Boeing 787 management for examples.
Even the Pope has only claimed infallability 6 times - I am a human being, I make mistakes, I try to learn from them and I try not to cover them up, represent them as something other than they are, or pretend they never happened.
PT, I was clear about my position on the issues at Epic weeks ago, when the story first broke, same day in fact. Truth be told, the severity of the situation, and the magnitude of the disconnect between what was being represented by Epic management and what reality was probably only became evident perhaps a week before the story broke.
Where were your heros when it was obvious strange things were afoot on Clark Carr Loop? Where were you? Did they call a spade a spade and demand justice or where they talking up the company and the plane? Remember, the record is clear.
I smell a shoe, and its dropping....
something miserable must be up.
CW, I am glad I did not post what I wrote a little while ago... it basically said you are going to be attacked for admitting you were wrong.
These guys can't take it. Someone actually has the balls to admit they were wrong.
Sad
Part of the "die-hard" psychology, must be.
No worries ATM,
I know that the best thing to do when somebody is making a fool out of themselves is just get out of the way and let it happen but the original post was such a gross mischaracterization of the publicly reported situation I allowed my desire to clarify/correct to override my desire to let the post stand on its' own as a monument to petty inconsequential commentary.
I suspect the EAC sale closes this week, more or less as expected, and then the hard work begins. I think that realization is sinking in, at least for some - and that is positive.
I knew that admitting to mistakes would garner that response, PT tries to make something out of it constantly.
But I am not the one to have parted with high 6 or low 7 figure monies in exchange for a partially completed plane with a series of now worthless IOU's and a limited shelf-life, nor have I tried to keep the money pump going knowing that the likelihood of success was next to nil.
There are a lot of rational EA-500 owner/operators, with realistic expectations and realistic objectives - folks who have been financially injured by this fiasco but who appreciate what the plane CAN do.
FWIW, I think we do ourselves a disservice if we accept the limited and occasionally bad-faith participation here from a small number of the Faithful as representative of the larger owner community, it is not - they cringe when certain things are said here, just like we do.
Now back to our regular scheduled programming.......
ATM said... These guys can't take it. Someone actually has the balls to admit they were wrong...
CW had no choice but to admit he was wrong since the company he was hawking for had locked it doors, and the owner ran away. There's a bit of a difference. As far as being "faithful", we have always been faithful to the aircraft. We realize the deficiencies, and we also realize what a great aircraft it is to fly. Again, there's a difference. I have no love for Vern, but a lot of the crap that was posted on these blogs about Eclipse was just that. So, for the record, the "faithful" have been taking it for quite a while. CW was the one whose feathers were in a tussle. Who is the one that can't take it?
Just out from the court dockets -
no closing today. But, Tuesday is just around the corner. Inching to the finish line.
Frankly I think the only way to make blogs like this more civil is for the moderator to immediately remove any post that derides another person irregardless of who it is.
replying and stating the facts are false etc is OK but until the children find out that any post in bad taste disappears the children will still resort to them.
I learned as a kid that having my mouth washed out with soap tended to help me be more civil in what I said.
the last airtaximan post is not from me...
Wow, the effort some people will go to to screw with this blog...
I guess we've really made some hard points and ruffled some feathers over the years.
Anyhow, to rebutt PT's last point as it concerns my post.
CW had every choice to omit that he was wrong... and your folks have done this for a long time. By your own post, you now say you had no love for Vern. I'll give you credit that this means there was a ton of BS related to the company, finances, orders, and the plane itself.
Apparently, you knew this, a long time ago.
Where were you, then.
I personally think you are a low life. Your posts here have been nothing but misunderstanding of the issues, designed to discredit and make BS statements regarding folks, who shed light on the real issues.
Maybe you did know all that wa swrong with EAC, and now admit this as "never loving Vern"...
Who cares - the BS was all over the place, and easily interpolated and brought to light by those far away.
My sense is, you were pretty close - you seem to be "just like the rest of them".
Perhaps you find it all amusing.
I dismiss you as a stakeholder, and you only have your own very individual interest in mind when you post here.
I find it quite sad.
PS. Schrameck is not deriding the industry since his company is gone... like some other folks... I would imagine he feels pretty bad... not for him self, but for how things turned out for everyone at Epic.
I cannot say this for Mr. Raburn, or for some others who have exposed their position on the $3B mess.
Beedriver . . . your efforts are admirable, but somehow individuals will find a way ‘round.
The story goes that a certain little boy could not speak in civil terms . . . and often would make fun of a pair of twins, who were bow-legged. (I feel free to speak of such, since I was bow-legged as a kid . . . able to walk over a barrel, without my knees touching.) So, the little kid would laugh out loud and call the “twins” bow legged, much to his parent’s chagrin.
In time, the parent’s sent their little monster to a private school, to teach him manners.
Upon return, the parents took little “Johnny” down through the center of town, pleased with what they believed to be success. And coming in the opposite direction were the bow-legged twins. As they approached, little “Johnny” suddenly paused, gestured with his hand, and exclaimed for all to hear: “Lo, what manner of men have we here, who wear their legs in parentheses?”
gadfly
(My bow legs were cured when the doctor, back in those ancient days, told my parents to put me in little “cowboy boots” . . . which cured the bow legs, and gave me flat feet. And now I can squish a beetle with my instep.)
ATM said... PS. Schrameck is not deriding the industry since his company is gone... like some other folks... I would imagine he feels pretty bad... not for him self, but for how things turned out for everyone at Epic.
What a load of crap. If Run-Away-Riok really felt something, anything, for his employees, he would be called Regretful-Rick. The fact is he's now just another Jim Bede, Rick Adam, Camilo Salomon, or Vern Raburn leaving customers, suppliers, and employees high and dry. ATM your point of view is pretty warped.
Snippet from the WSJ:
In a major shake-up of its executive ranks, Boeing Co. is replacing Scott Carson, president and chief executive of its commercial airplane unit and the person in charge of the troubled 787 Dreamliner project.
Mr. Carson, a nearly 41-year Boeing employee, will be succeeded by Jim Albaugh, who currently runs Boeing's Integrated Defense Systems business.
I will agree with PT insofar as his/her characterization of Shramek's behavior, there is more, but you have to dig through the court papers to find it.
FWIW, Bede doesn't belong in the same grouping, he tried to make amends, several times, and he is still kicking.
CW Said...My point is Boeing is a large, successful and profitable company, and like all other near disasters in its' storied 93 year history, it will survive this one too.
-------------
Agreed. I was not comparing Boeing to Eclipse, but the 787 program to the EA500 program.
In any event, I was just having fun with it.
The 787, even if it loses money, has a lot of value to Boeing. Airliners in the next several decades will be +50% composite and have +50% electrical systems and be +50% outsourced. And Boeing got a jump on the competition - as painful as it is now, it will pay off long term.
Shadow said...
My sources tell me that Boeing will sell the first three 787 R&D ships as VIP aircraft after certification. So much for scrapping them.
-----------------------
My sources tell me that frames 4,5,6 will be sold as VIPs. But frames 1,2,3 will not be sold.
They tell that the amount of "unique" on those frames would make those frames uneconomical to finish, deliver and maintain.
But hey, if you have better information, so be it.
I've been off the grid past few days - due to a pesky customer ;)
WhyTech said...
In a major shake-up of its executive ranks, Boeing Co. is replacing Scott Carson, president and chief executive of its commercial airplane unit and the person in charge of the troubled 787 Dreamliner project.
------------------
Is the Boeing board now reading this blog and taking cues from the weekend's posts ?? ;) ;)
I know Boeing did not sue the blog, but boy, heads rolled as called for!!! ;)
LOL.
CW,
For the record your standing, in my mind, only improved on your admission that Epic was not what you thought.
So, no need to have long defensive posts about it.
I wished everyone would approach any GA project from a startup as - it will fail unless all the planets align the right way.
That is the only sane approach in my mind. Plan for the worst, be pleasantly surprised if things turn out better.
Good luck to EA closing the sale tomorrow. As CW says, hard work is ahead.
But one important thing to keep in mind....
EA has *A LOT* less unknowns to deal with than Eclipse, Epic, even Boeing on the 787.
They have a factory, tools, fleet, employees, vendors, costs, SBs for upgrades, TCs, etc.
It is a difficult but manageable task.
"heads rolled as called for!!! ;)"
A sacrificial lamb - should be a whole flock! More heads please!
Baron,
"My sources tell me that frames 4,5,6 will be sold as VIPs. But frames 1,2,3 will not be sold."
Sounds right to me. Figure they'll be used "in house" for R&D or corporate shuttle.
from HBC press release today:
The Premier II program continues to progress, with HBC remaining focused on making its commitment for first prototype flight to take place in December 2009. The company will continue to evaluate the best timing for the Premier II entry-into-service, but expects this to now occur in late 2012 or early 2013.
WhyTech,
"A sacrificial lamb - should be a whole flock! More heads please!"
W-e-l-l,
I'm not sure who, or what, is responsible for Boeing's woes.
It would be interesting to find a nice analysis though. I should think there would be about a thousand graduate thesis (thesii ?) on the subject by now. Anyone got a favorite?
The silence is deafening!
Wasn't the deal supposed to be completed today ?
Tomorrow ?
Ten days ?
Ten Business Days ? (Add 4)
Ten "Eclipse Days" ? (Multiply by 3)
Ten "Dreamliners Days" ? (Multiply by 4)
Ten "Wedge Days" ? (Raise to the third power)
All I can say is, Whazzup !!
Does anyone really thing Scott Carson, a 41-year Boeing employee, came up with the bull-sh$% idea to outsource virtually all the engineering as well as production for the 787 components, and turn Seattle into a final assembly operation? Boeing seems incapable of putting the blame squarely where it belongs. McNerney should have his Harvard MBA crammed up his backside and kicked out into the street.
"Does anyone really thing Scott Carson,"
Its rare when the real culprit is the first to go. Usually the last, and only after the Board is fully awake and fearing law suits.
Goat asks, "The silence is deafening!
Wasn't the deal supposed to be completed today ?"
Jet-maker Eclipse Aviation opens under new owner, according to AP.
Meanwhile...Eclipse fleet hours and total flight mileage for August 2009 were both 8% higher than they were in July.
Ken
Ken can I ask a favor, nobody really deals with 'flight mileage', could you drop it and just stick to more conventional metrics? Hours flown, lbs of fuel burned, etc.
100,000 miles sounds like a lot, until you realize at 400 mph it is only 250 hours, and 250 hours is a fairly conventional utilization for a light business jet.
There are industry standard metrics, some of which the EA-500 does reasonably well on (PPH for example) which will keep the discussion centered and relevant.
The use of esoteric or made-up metrics does not serve your case.
Might help to cite a source as well, so long as it isn't FlightAware, since we have all had argument on argument as to how 'unrepresentative' it is.
Hopefully the sale closes tomorrow, as closing on a Tuesday, though it warms the cockles of my heart, is somehow not right if these guys really want a fresh start.
Ken clearly said... Meanwhile...Eclipse fleet hours and total flight mileage for August 2009 were both 8% higher than they were in July.
And 8% higher than July is just how many flight hours?
Also, month-to-month flight activity comparisons aren't very good for overall analysis since there are seasonal variations. So the real question is how August 09 compares with August 08.
Coldwet writes, "Ken can I ask a favor...?"
No, you may not ask any favors of anybody.
...Until you repent. You are the guy who complained the loudest about nastiness and rancor on this blog, but somehow you thought yourself exempt when you chose of your own free will to write,
"I know there is precious little room in that tea-cup Chihuahua brain of yours for facts"
Which is it? Do you want to trade barbs all day or try to discuss aviation issues openly and intelligently? As far as I'm concerned, you're banished until you write the words, "I'm sorry for the insulting, insensitive comment I made."
Ken
So Ken thinks he's the blog admin now? Just when I thought things couldn't get more delusional here on the blog, they do...
Shadow writes, "month-to-month flight activity comparisons aren't very good for overall analysis"
That may be true in general, but the purpose I had in posting those numbers was to continue to refute the oft-stated notion that Eclipse 500's are languishing, unflyable, AOG in increasing numbers every day that goes by since the bankruptcy.
In actuality, fleet hours and fleet mileage were higher in August than any month since Chapter 7 was declared, and August saw almost exactly the same number of aircraft flying as March.
The idea that the fleet is increasingly rotting away from lack of support is incorrect. And that is a testament to the design of the aircraft as well as to the ingenuity of the owners in working around the current difficulties.
The reopening of Eclipse should make owners' task all that much easer to achieve. I warmly congratulate Eclipse Aerospace!
Ken
Ken, PT brought that upon him/her self by constantly attacking people personally, myself included - and by failing to make any contribution of value to the blog.
So although you are in no position to demand or expect it, I will consider apologizing when PT actually make a salient, valid and contributing post and perhaps apologizes for his/her behavior - in other words, physician, heal thyself.
In the mean time, please continue to use nonstandard, bogus and/or misleading information to try and build up your case - I was hopeful that an important corner had perhaps finally been turned, seems I was wr, wr wr, wr wr wr wrong (with apologies to Arthur Fonzerelli).
Please, carry on.
Nice dodge on the request for the source of the utilization numbers BTW, you are back to fine form.
Hi Ken,
Thanks for the update on the progress.
Given the amount of press coverage dedicated to the obvious posturing over the past many months, I had expected a bit more in the way of media attention for this very significant event.
Congratulations and good luck to Eclipse Aerospace.
Shadow asks a good question, what are the actual numbers in terms of aircraft movements, hourse flown, etc.?
% increase is nearly meaningless without a reference, especially if the utilization had dropped to almost zero - and given the fact that Ken has reported a continuing uptick over the past several months would logically suggest that utilization had, in fact, fallen off as suggested by critics here and as refuted by Ken and other Faithful.
This is further supported as reported directly to me by a trusted Eclipse service provider (maintains dozens of Eclipsii). He indicated as much as 25% of the owners would get out if able, and that as much as 50% were parked for parts shortages, needed inspections/Mx, or fear of breaking something (this was back in the Spring).
Now I know that Ken has 'banished' me because I insulted the mental capacity of tea-cup chihuahuas by a pointed comparison, so maybe someone else can ask him for real numbers, flights, hours, etc., to back up his claims, and the source for that info, hopefully a verifiable source - but nobody should hold their breath, I won't be.
ASM said:
"Does anyone really thing Scott Carson, a 41-year Boeing employee, came up with the bull-sh$% idea to outsource virtually all the engineering as well as production for the 787 components, and turn Seattle into a final assembly operation? Boeing seems incapable of putting the blame squarely where it belongs. McNerney should have his Harvard MBA crammed up his backside and kicked out into the street."
Indeed. Boeing may be hosting one of the weakest executive offices and Board in its history.
Coldwet: "PT brought that upon him/her self by constantly attacking people personally, myself included - and by failing to make any contribution of value to the blog."
Actually, I think he makes more salient and credible contributions than you do. That's an opinion; some will no doubt disagree with it. The world goes on.
But, either way, he doesn't talk through both sides of his mouth, complaining bitterly about personal attacks and then launching them himself.
No one "brings on" a personal attack. Personal attacks are the result of a conscious decision by the attacker, not the victim.
IMHO, the only kind of guy worse than an insensitive boor who substitutes personal attack for factual argument is one who does all that AFTER bitching about other people's nasty attacks.
Do you have it in you to repent?
Ken
OK, let me get this straight. Ken said CW was banished (i.e. "dead to him") until he repented, but then Ken goes right into bantering with CW like he didn't even make that previous post.
Is someone now spoofing Ken on the blog?
Do you have it in you Ken to honestly deal with the actual questions presented?
You don't actually have to bother, we all know the answer - you are fine to participate while you think you have the upper hand or that things are going well, or when your peanut gallery is present - but when the other shoe drops you resort to pettiness, careful parsing of posts, and ignoring real questions.
If you read the exchanges you will find that I already admitted to allowing my desire to correct the atrocious mischaracterization that PT 'consciously chose to make' regarding myself and Gunner (ooutright lies and attempted characgter assasination - that's right I said it, PT is LIAR).
I allowed that sense of right and wrong to override my normal inclination to allow an ass to continue to make an ass out himself - especially one who is so widely known for making zero real contribution here.
This is important since we all know that PT is an alter ego for someone else (writing style is very hard to disguise). PT is a doppleganger intended to allow someone to make the vicious attacks their character (or lack thereof) demands while taking the 'higher road' when posting as themselves.
So you tell me what is more despicable - which man is worse - the guy who defends himself and his friends from outright lies, or the coward who pretends to be someone else to provide the dishonest appearance of mutual support that is shockingly absent in the real world?
In the mean time, you continue to use this as a smokescreen to avoid answering questions intended to derive the value, if any, of the post you made about increasing utilization.
When the facts provide no real assistance make it about personality - the old playbook gets trotted out again.
You and your cadre of characters can have the last word - as usual, a request for verifiable and useful information goes unheeded - the messenger must be killed - after all, there are priorities in play.
Coldwet writes, "I allowed that sense of right and wrong to override my normal inclination to allow an ass to continue to make an ass out himself - especially one who is so widely known for making zero real contribution here."
You have a peculiar way of apologizing for your insults...by adding new insults!
Are you familiar with the definition of hypocrisy?
I think our conversation is concluded. I wanted to know if you were man enough to owe up to your hypocritical nasty attacks and apologize. It appears I have my answer.
Ken
And I have mine as well.
It was nice while it lasted Ken - I was hopeful but alas, we are all too human. Where is your umbrage at PT's baseless LIES? Where is your outrage at his deliberate mischaracterization of publicly known facts? Or is that a one-way street?
If you want to be the bigger man here Ken, you need to be CONSISTENT. I am the one who called for a cessation to hostilities, from BOTH SIDES the last time things got heated a few days ago, remember, the record is clear.
Regardless, whether or not PT mans up for his deliberate insults and LIES I will apologize for effectively calling him stupid - I can certainly limit my remarks to the lack of value he brings, point out the LIES he makes, and highlight the absence of contribution in his pedantic personal attacks - there will be no need to stoop to his level going forward.
For the record, I am also sorry that I insulted the Chihuahua's, they are actually intelligent, caring, and kind of fun once you get used to all the yapping and having to watch where you step so as not to injure them - it was, in hindsight, a very poor comparison.
So with that out of the way, are you ready to answer the questions Ken, or will you instead now add additional qualifications to your request for apology?
Coldwet asks, "with that out of the way, are you ready to answer the questions Ken...?"
Your apology to the group and to PT was a bit lefthanded. But, sure; I'm ready to take a stab at whatever is on your mind. What were your questions? Something about flight miles? :)
Ken
Allrighty then,
What are the actuals, not the % increase, for flight activity in August vs July, but the numbers? E.g., July, 150 hours, August 162 hours, something like that, and the source (e.g., secret decoder ring club, or that bothersome FlightAware) - as I requested previously.
You can even use flight mileage if you want, we can back out an average speed to get to hours utilization.
Just trying to gain perspective into what the 8% uptick actually amounts to.
I think my interest in this blog just went up 8%. LOL.
Hey folks-there's some actual news out there-can we set personalities aside for a while?
It's alive!
Most of you have heard of the six stages of a project. It will be interesting to see how they play out in the new adventures of Eclipse.
1 Enthusiasm
Yep, got that right now
2 Disillusionment
Attempts to restart suppliers may take care of that
3 Panic
Perhaps the first AD?
4 Search for the guilty
The blog is here to help!
5 Punishment of the innocent
The blog does pretty well at that too-unfortunately
6 Reward of the non-participants
Not having a "dog in the hunt" is it's own reward here
Having noted all that, I greatly admire all involved for their efforts in trying to restart things, and wish them all the success in the world.
Are you familiar with the definition of hypocrisy?
Ken, did YOU actually write this?
OMG... after all you have done here?
The relentless unabashed promoton, just to get a hunk of metal for your deposit(s), when you knew all was cooked a long time ago?
Yo have no shame. You even refused to take up a simple wager when you promoted EAC order book as real... sad...sad...
You are a stakeholde, and no one should believe anything you wrote here.
In fact, there's at least one REAL owner report that refutes EVERYTHING you wrote here...
So, you have Ken, plus one other real owner who reports the exact opposite from Ken.
Who would you believe?
NOT Ken... this has been proven, as he does not even stand behind his own BS.
"That may be true in general, but the purpose I had in posting those numbers was to continue to refute the oft-stated notion that Eclipse 500's are languishing, unflyable, AOG in increasing numbers every day that goes by since the bankruptcy"
I have never red anyhing of thie sort here on his blog, except now from you which makes me very suspicious.
I would think, anyone flying these contraptions, knows they are moving closer to AOG, that's it.
Its a fact - one you may refute, but without answers to a lot of critical questions, despite folks like you claiming otherswise, EVERY FLIGHT IS JUST ONE STEP CLOSER TO AOG.
Looking at PTs last post, I would be curious as to how he characterzes he othee VLJ starts... I do not think ANY of the Saphire depositors lost 1 cent.
- had to look up Camilo Solomon to find that refernce.
I suspect, this PT idiot is a real stakeholder, knowing all the players including some obscure fellow from 10 years ago.
Not surprised, given his distain for anything reasonable.
OK, PT... what harm did these other guys do, compared to say EAC, who you defend.
How miserable it must be to be you.
The idea that the fleet is increasingly rotting away from lack of support is incorrect.
I guess the move to buy the assets is really stupid, then....
The fleet is just fine... move along.
What an ass
And 8% higher than July is just how many flight hours?
JUST fyi, this number is BS compared to the GA fleet utilization which is up a lot more.
Idiots will continue to fool themselves... I guess
Has ATM been spoofed again?
"ATM said... PS. Schrameck is not deriding the industry since his company is gone... like some other folks... I would imagine he feels pretty bad... not for him self, but for how things turned out for everyone at Epic.
What a load of crap."
Hell, PT, Vern, Ken, whoever you are... I do not see Schrameck deriding the industry, do you?
Vern's first move was to dfend himself publicly, in the press, and basically restate his proposterous position - everyone in the industry was wrong, and he was right.
I would have preferred to see him moe along and disappear - -at least then we would not all have 100% affirmation of his level of insanity, hubris and BS.
Schrameck, even though YOU might want to see him as no worse than yourself or Vern, is gone - probably repending and feeling bad.
You can assume otherwise if it makes you feel better about yourself - but, at that point you would need to admit that the Verns and Kens of the worls, who continue to think and state they know BETTER than everyone else, needs to find a good shrink.
You will NOT do this, of course... we all know that.
dude?
why ask?
In case anyone is interested in a non racist discussion of GA prospects in China, including Diamond's and Cessna's factories there, to produce up to 1,000 and 700 planes per year, respectively, you can read the nice article below:
GA set for growth in China .
Question...What design changes should be made if we take labor largely out of the equation?
This animosity is not helpful.
I am sick and tired of watching folks like Ken misrepresent the facts, while trying like a used car salesman who is left with nothing but a 1970's Yugo on his lot, try to make a case for why someone else should provide oney to this burning pile of IOU's.
Ken, why not invest MORE of yur own money in this thing, and try for a few more planes, for your deposits?
We all know why...........
Just BS...
For those who enjoy personal attacks and name calling, there's already a great venue-
Name Calling, and even Violence, Encouraged Here!!
Perhaps there . . . instead of the blog?
Just a suggestion . . .
So, then, did the check clear? Are the EA people in ABQ doing whatever it is EA people in ABQ do without a repair station certificate? Just curious.
Coldwet--
The numbers came from a clever data capture program that a fellow Eclipse owner put together that utilizes the Flightaware datastream. I'll let him post the raw numbers if he wants; the data are not mine.
AT wrote, "What an ass [Ken is]"
"everyone here ha the 100% absolut RIGHT to call you a hypocrite and liar"
"folks like Ken misrepresent the facts"
And since I'm not the only guy who likes Eclipse, he added, "PT [is an] idiot
You know guys, you finally did it. I'm tired of always being attacked. Always been told you're perfect, and I'm a turd.
So, I'm going to disappear a while. I hope Plain Truth and any others who are not rabid haters of everything Eclipse sign off too. Let's let the nasties have the sandbox to themselves. And play alone.
Bye now.
Ken
This website needs something we had on “the Boat”, . . . a #13 tube. #1 thru
#6 were the forward torpedo tubes, #7 thru #10 were torpedo tubes aft, #11 & 12 were the signal tubes (for emergency flares), and #13 was for the garbage . . . put in “screen bags”, weighted with chunks of lead, and ejected into the ocean. And if that wasn’t enough, we had three “sanitary tanks”, to dump the heads overboard, using air pressure to accomplish the event, since even on the surface all heads were well below sea level.
One time, an officer, a “Lt. JG”, used the “crew’s head” in the “After Battery”, and got the air-valve mixed up with the sea-valve. When he bent over, and opened the “flapper valve” he got more than a surprised look on his face.
And this local spat between some of our “bloggers” reminds me that it’s best to know what you’re doing and where you’re doing it. For the rest of us, we’ll stay clear . . . and come back after things are a bit cleaned up.
gadfly
OK Gad. Even an old timer like yourself knows that a duck is a duck. The true test is to see if shit floats. That's what they did back in WWII, eh? The faithful here deserve all they get. We come up with our undercover investigating and they dispute it. What more do you want? What more do they want? Sad, really sad. I'm just beside myself. There's no more BS to report. We need to make up some stuff. Too bad they can't handle it.
Where's the admin who is supposed to be deleting the hate filled explative laced posts?
Or is that rule just for the people who have an eclipse or like eclipse 500?
I'm still interested in the flight hours for Eclipse 500s in August 09 vs August 08, as well as a stated source for this data. What I don't want is someone to come back with statistics saying it's up X% because that doesn't really tell me anything at all.
CW, I feel your frustration, but you can't let that affect your postings here on the blog. Take the high road, even though some other posters are making tracks on the low road.
And, Ken, can you please stop acting like my five year old when you don't get your way? You might as well said in your last post that you're taking your toys and going home. I'll leave you with a familiar children's phrase: sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me. Repeat that until it sinks in, please. Only after you get this will you be allowed to post again on the blog. This last part is sarcasm, btw.
some of the posts were really mine, and some, by someone obviously tired of the truth... spoofing me.
Such effort, probably only result from dislike of the real truth.
- I remind everyone of Vern's ild attempt to shudder this blog... accusing us of knowing so much, that we were insiders and subject to NDA.
Too bad the blog is still around, calling the reality as we see it.
I guess, this is a renewed attempt to discredit and destroy the blog - too many realities for the "faithful" to stomach.
The real airtaximan will vanish now - knowing the truth is simple:
1- eeryone reading this blog knows the real truth regarding the issues, and those that got stiffed with a plane, or got stiffed out of a deposit know it as well.
2- everyone knows the critics were absolutely correct on all issues relating to the company and the plane. Lame attempts to continue to sell this plane as a real value, (especially based on simple fuel burn) is just designed to convince other neophyte potential buyers, there is potential, where there isreally very little value.
3- the market is saturated - there's no high rate, and no real casne for low cost. As this truth sinks in, the marketplace will show itself (and it already has despite the lies, perpetuated by some here) to be a market of fettish owners enamored with a high tech plane that is really an abomination of failed technology that delivered nothing to the real low cost proposition, except pennies of fuel.
So in the end, we have some sad stragglers, trying to hock their decision, a risk-ladened poor decision for any pilot to make, on a new plane that failed on all accounts to deliver the promise.
They resort to spoofing bloggers, to discredit them... and apparently, they are very desperate.... I smell a shoe dropping.... make of it as you will.
CAVEAT EMPTOR
“taximan” and E-P-O-M-S-I-V (almost sounds like a highschool football cheer):
The subject title is “Aviation Critic & Enthusiast . . .” And it has been assumed that those who come to this party are adults, with a certain sense of maturity, and decency. The easiest approach is to “pretend” that those present are guests at a party or meeting that the reader (that’s you and I) has sponsored in his own home. And conduct ourselves accordingly.
Concerning being wrong, I’ve been wrong more times than I wish to remember . . . but through a simple apology, I’ve made some excellent and lasting friendships. But then, every man has to determine how he wishes to expend his energies, and make his reputation.
It’s true that some, including me, have asked honest questions about “hours” and “miles flown” . . . and either been ignored, or had the numbers manipulated to show opposite results. But that’s OK . . . get used to it. Our “president” and his staff do that at the highest levels on a daily . . . hourly schedule. ‘Just be patient . . . the “truth” will “out” . . . and the one who is most willing to hide the truth is usually the one to reveal it, unintentionally. Patience . . . patience . . . patience!
“Prevaricators” always demands response, and when it’s not given, they’ll go out of their way to get it. There’s humor in all this, for those that learn “patience”, and do not ever respond in kind . . . because that is what they feed on.
gadfly
(Hey . . . this is a good fishing spot. ‘Just watch . . . before long I think I’ll get a bite!)
Gad,
EPOMSIV most likely stands for Eclipse Pilot OMS-IV, the latter being some kind of medical certification. As amazing as Google is, I still couldn't get a definition of exactly what "OMS-IV" is via a search, but I did see it used immediately after doctors' names. I'm curious to know what OMS-IV stands for.
Oh Gadfly all too tru e. Those that can't stomache it shall surely find themselves in the belly of the beast someday. The tactics of the faithful it truly sad. They know we were right and that we will continue to be right. They will never darken the skies. There will never be more productiuon. The will never be cost-effective travel in an Eclipse. With each flight they get closer and closer to the inevitable end - EOG. They know it, we know it. There can only be one outcome to all of this. AD's are on the way. The FAA will shut down this nasty little bird and make the skies safe once more.
Shadow . . . Maybe you should ask the “man” what it means. He just might give you an answer, or a hint. I do know what an “IV” is . . . next time you’re in a hospital, there is a likelihood that one or two of my safety circuit switches are inside the “pump”, and my name is on the patent for the “self-locking disposable flow stop”, that little plastic self-locking clip on the tube that goes into your wrist.
taximan . . . Frankly, I’m much more afraid of catching the plague from one of the rodents I keep killing in our yard, or stepping on a rattlesnake, than being hit by a “lawn dart” from out of the blue, fifteen miles from the end of the runway where the little bird is manufactured.
For that matter, we had a great thunderstorm on our side of the mountain last night. And, had I gone outside, I might have made “connection” with one of those “lightning strikes” and come up with an answer as to how fast one of those new super capacitor/storage batteries could be “recharged” at home . . . of course, I would not have been able to verify that “five time constants” are needed to fully transfer a full charge (at approximately 63 % for each time constant) between capacitor type storage devices.
gadfly
(As a kid, I couldn’t figure where the sun went . . . ‘stayed awake all night . . . and it finally dawned on me.)
(It’s OK to make fun of yourself . . . If you don’t, someone else will beat you to it. Smile!)
Let’s take it one step further . . . since it seems acceptable to reach into the dregs of profanity, and insults . . . I’d like for a moment to take it in the opposite direction:
A long time ago, I realized that I was not acceptable to the One who created the universe, but came to realize that, although I was not alone in that opinion, the Creator, Himself, had already taken me into account, became a human being, and stepped into my place, paid the ultimate price for my sinful condition, came back from the dead, and invited me to join Him in everlasting fellowship . . . as in, “forever”. That’s a proposition I could have refused . . . but didn’t. And since that day, in the summer of 1946, I have not once regretted that offer, and acceptance. Nor have I once doubted the veracity of His offer . . . you ‘just can’t make this stuff up.
Since then, I’ve seen His promises, verified, over and over and over. So, having been through a few other graduations, . . . highschool, boot-camp, some (many) other schools, etc., etc., I look forward to that final graduation, with the greatest expectation . . . and wish only the best for each of you, regardless of where you might stand on Eclipse, and all that sort of stuff . . . which in the end will not even be remembered.
gadfly
(Ah yes . . . call someone anything and everything in the book, and get away with it. But bring the attention to matters of higher value than anything within man’s control, and the sparks fly. So be it!)
Great reminder Gad, thanks.
Cold fish
‘Met some of the others face to face. ‘Looking forward to having a visit with you, too . . . in person.
gadfly
(Not hard to reach!)
Back in Eclipseland, the media is reporting that the new company is based in.....Charleston, SC. I think that is where the rich dude with all the pharma money is located. Maybe they are running it out of the same pharma offices? Who knows. Interesting anyhow.
ASM sez:
"Back in Eclipseland, the media is reporting that the new company is based in.....Charleston, SC. I think that is where the rich dude with all the pharma money is located. Maybe they are running it out of the same pharma offices? Who knows. Interesting anyhow."
ASM, are you sure you don't have a login to the Eclipse Owner's Group web site? You can't tell me that you sussed that out just from reading press releases. If so, your deductive powers are scary.
I suspect that, like Shane Price, you are actually getting inside information from some spy. C'mon, 'fess up, that's really it, isn't it?
Inside information, huh? I was accused of that by several of the faithful. My predictions were so spot-on it WAS scary. But I'll tell. Everyone wants to talk. The information is out there So, he truth is I'm just that good. As Isaid, you probably know who I am. I speak on panels and I really know my shit. Just like others here. This program is so transparent it is realy SCARY. help us all.
From a news article today...
"Holland and Press have said it's too early to determine the price of any newly produced Eclipse 500s because they need to contact 100s of suppliers to figure out their cost."
100's of suppliers yet to be contacted?
You have got to be F'ing kidding me....
Where did you see that Bubba?
That was the fake "airtaximan" who just posted. Click on "airtaximan" at the top of the post, and it will show "Profile Not Available." The real ATM has a profile, with an "On blogger since" date of November, 2006.
RonRoe, the reference to SC has been in the media - that where Mason lives. No need to add paranoia to the blog. There are enough medical conditions here to keep the shrinks busy for a long time to come.
ATM, you are SOoooo full of yourself, I'm surprised there's still room for your bullshit.
So the spoofing continues, real class act.
Good catch RR.
Has anyone else notice that Mason Holland is an anagram for:
O Al Mann Holds
Has anyone actually met Mason Holland? With all of the press releases, have they ever published a picture of Mason?
Seems like a little too much coincidence to be coincidental, if you catch my drift.
The faithful are really getting desperate. They know this new company has no chance of restarting production, little chance of surviving at all, and they just can't stand the pressure any more. "Scotty, beam me up!!!"
RR, that was funny.
Anyone with a PACER subscription know whether the sale closed today?
Unless the clock was reset by Ken's post about Judge Walrath's final order not being released until August 29 (entirely plausible but not what Ken was saying), the 10 day clock times out on Thursday.
I wonder how M&M could have presented convincing information about pricing to the EOG and other high-profile owners if they had not talked to 'hundreds' of former suppliers. Something doesn't add up.
M&M need to get a professional spokesman in place ASAP so that they can limit the contradictory statements - this is one thing that EAC 1.0 under Vern did extremely well.
So now I have been spoofed (Beam me up), what a bunch of pathetic cowards.
What does it say about some of the Faithful that they resort to pretending to be critics to post deliberately inflammatory things that are obviously not written by the person in question?
Get a life guys, debate on the facts and talk about the company and the plane - diverging from that into sophomoric spoofing does smack of major issues.
It is not enough that some poseters masquerade as more supporters, now they have to try and cast some critics in bad light by posting such tripe.
It would be funny, were it not so sad.
BTW, I have a profile that is public if you ever wonder whether I wrote anything claiming to be a fishy bit of wisdom, or just fishy.
Gad, if your offer for a great and far ranging discussion over all things of interest still holds, I'll make the appropriate arrangements for the next time I am near ABQ - might be in town for the Balloon Fiesta this year.
Green chile cheeseburgers on me!
Cold Wet
'Funny, your shadow back a couple blogs doesn't even look like you! But whoever it is, probably can't figure it out.
Balloon Festival? . . . Yes, friend, you're on with the green chile burgers, etc.
There's two . . . No, three things I will not ride in: Balloons and the "Tram" . . . neither has wings . . . and a ship that cannot submerge, and return to the surface in due time.
gadfly
"100's of suppliers yet to be contacted?
You have got to be F'ing kidding me....
Where did you see that Bubba?"
I got this from a highly unreliable source; Forbes and the Associated Press!
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/09/01/business-financial-impact-us-eclipse-opening_6836259.html
"Has anyone actually met Mason Holland? With all of the press releases, have they ever published a picture of Mason?"
Actually yes. You can see him here:
http://www.charlestondigitalcorridor.com/corridor/foundation/
I've gone through and deleted some comments, that I couldn't tell if were spoofs, or were just uncharacterisic emphatic.
New headline post up-
Topic: NewCo.
My appologies, to Ken in particular, for not being "on a topp" of things today.
...No doubt, being involved with Eclipse was a bit "high stakes" in the past!
1:39 "The trick is to quit while you're still ahead".
With good reason, a sentiment that is rued by many.
Let's hope with Eclipse Aerospace, the game isn't quite as rigged as it seems to have been in the past...
I m curious? as people seem to be confiscating others names in this blog. is there any way that only one log in name can be used at a time in a specific blog? It occurs to me that if the computer king only allowed one name at a time it would be impossible for anyone to hijack a name in a blog.
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