Whoops!!Things are getting pretty lively!! (Time for a Moderator Interrupt).
A gentle reminder, from the upper left hand corner of the blog homepage:
"Politeness, civility and good manners are expected at a minimum..."
Thank you- we now return to our regularly scheduled programming.
729 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 729 of 729Here is my contribution... cleanest sex and fly joke ever ...
A woman walked into the kitchen to find her
husband stalking around with a fly swatter
"What are you doing?"
She asked.
"Hunting Flies"
He responded.
"Oh. ! Killing any?"
She asked..
"Yep, 3 males, 2 Females," he replied.
Intrigued, she asked.
"How can you tell them apart?"
He responded,
"3 were on a beer can,
2 were on the phone."
Again, not my point Baron.
Thousands of Bonanza's built, millions of hours flown, can be had with modern glass panel, de-ice, a/c, etc. Same for the King Airs, the Lear's, the Citations and CJ's, the Premier.
I am in no way against innovation or evolution, I was pointing out decades of history, tens of thousands of aircraft deliveries, hundreds of millions of hours of operation, ever decreasing accident rates, more reliable systems and engines. Hell, I am the guy who is supportive of high-end experimentals as an alternative - can't be called a luddite.
Comparing 260 incomplete aircraft foisted upon a couple hundred early adopters, subsidized by nearly a thousand victims and a billion in trade receivables after raising and spending nearly $2B to these other aircraft is laughable.
I know you think the slate has effectively been wiped clean with the BK, and that may be true soon, technically, but ignoring or forgiving it is not part of my thought process. Moving past it will, in my mind, be largely defined by the actions of M&M if they actually close, or when the table scraps are distributed to the Jackals if they don't.
"That is insane. There is absolutely no excuse for it other than a general failing of the industry to meet customer needs through innovation."
What is insane is making such insane comments. Do you want to meet my needs as a GA pilot? Then give me a fan-jet engine that will be comparable in its operating economics and acquisition costs to a high end turbocharged piston engine. Do you have such engine on the horizon? No, you don't, not even close. So please shut up and try to imagine that not every GA pilot can afford your darling fan-jet regardless how cute and miniature it is. And in fact those "relic" engines you so vilify still carry a lot of happy pilots every weekend at very affordable prices and aircraft accidents due to engine failures are exceedingly rare.
Michal said...So please shut up
-------------------------
Amazing, how some people come to a free internet blog - as in a place to voice one's opinion, and tell others to "shut up".
At least this one asks "please" ;)
Amazing.
And Michal...ignoring your rudeness for a moment...I have yet to find a turbocharged piston engine owner who says they are incredibly happy with their engines.
But I KNOW personally quite a few horror stories.
WHO in their right mind, would be happy having to service an engine every 50 hrs? Or having a TBO measured in hundreds of hours? Or having SFC that has remained the same for decades, when every other engine in the world from cars to boats to motorcycles to fan-jet planes has experienced quantum leaps in reliability, SFC and expansion of maintenance intervals.
My present car recommends oil change only every 15K miles, and actually has a computer that will tell me when to change the oil based on operating condition. 10 years ago it was 5K miles, 20 years ago 3K miles.
There is a reason no airline or military force uses piston engines anymore.
Do you honestly believe that the O-360 engine on the 2009 Archer is the best technology that can be had? Do you really think pilots should be exposed to power loss due to carburetor icing on every approach to land? How many people a year die because of that? 100?
It is totally insane. It is a disgrace that these engines are still in service.
No wonder Piper has been through 3 bankruptcies and 2 distressed sales lately.
People like you - saying all is well - are ignoring that people are abandoning GA in droves.
It is amazing how people who would not dream of buying a car with more than 1 defect on average per 100 cars, climb aboard behind disgraceful engines. Well, at least the ones in their 60s do. Young generation wants nothing to do with the GA junk.
Ken,
And the production interior is very nice. Bubba's idea that it's imitation leather isn't correct. I don't think the Phenom 100 has a lot on it in terms of quality. But judge for yourself how much better the interior is when you pay twice as much:
fpj interior by nn
Phenom 100 by Embraer
what about a floor plan?
Some people might remember the Mini Cooper - lot of space between the seats but...
Floor plans by Embraer
Ken, you never showed a picture with RiP or Ed sitting in the back of the fpj!
Whenever you post something I have always the feeling there is something missing - it is only half the truth!
Julius
P.S.: I fully respect someone who is fond of a Mazda MX-5 (roadster) unless he wants to persusde me that the car has as much space as a Mazda BT-50 (SUV)! Naturally I exepect the MX-5 to burn less fuel.
Ken,
Using the EAC records, supplied to the Bankruptcy Court, your losses so far are on public record as follows:-
Lost ConJet Deposit, $100,000
Second FPJ Deposit (also lost) $100,000
'Pre paid JetComplete', $35,000
Total $235,000.
I've left out interest on the money, commissions, purchase taxes or anything else from the real world.
So, DIRECT losses for your involvement in the Eclipse scam is $235,000, per Court records.
You're own admission of '100,000' statute miles covered at (and I'm being more than fair here) 330kts, is about 300 hours.
Plus depreciation of (again, giving you the benefit of the doubt) $500,000. However, I'm pretty sure you'd actually struggle to shift your FPJ in the current market, so this figure could double if you were forced to dispose of it.
That's $2,450 per hour.
You've admitted costs (since Chapter 11 last year) of $550 per hour.
Do the maths.
So, to quote you:-
I don't know what you're talking about, and I'm starting to believe that you don't either.
You've lost a fortune in this mess but continue to bang on about fuel savings as if that was the only thing that matters.
In business, we tend to see the bigger picture. It keeps everyone honest and exposes the truth.
Eclipse Aviation Corporation became a Ponzi scheme, which even your relentless promotion (innocent, I know) failed to perpetuate.
Lets all hope that Eclipse Aerospace operate to higher ethical standards. Let's also hope they employ professional management with a good understanding of the realities of the aviation market.
And that the general economic environment improves, radically.
Then, they might have a chance.
Plain Truth,
An interesting line reaches the inbox this week. Ken has opponents in the EOG, who think his promotion of the M&M bid is the kiss of death.
It appears the some EOG members are doubtful that M&M will do anything other than muddy the future. It's clear they'd hoped the Hawker Beechcraft service agreement would blossom into something more substantial. Sadly, this was not to be.
I'm surprised you failed to share this view with us before, since you seem so keen on transparency.
But don't fret. I'll keep you 'informed' of what's going on...
Shane
you've admitted $550 per hour..
need to add high engine HSI and OH costs/reserves to be realistic, and, based on low utilization... this is a fat number, in reality.
Also, the cost associated with "free" upgrades.....
You are conservatively $1000/hour shy, Shane... but nice summary.
I would also remind everyone, this is fairly typical of EAC customers - many had 2 and 3deposits with the company.
Some got completely shafted. Others, well... they just lost their deposits.
OMSIV said:
"Blogs new slogan...
If you fly an Eclipse then fuck you!"
Acyually, it was Vern who adopted this slogan... at first it was BUY, only later replaced with FLY...
Amazing, how some people come to a free internet blog - as in a place to voice one's opinion, and tell others to "shut up". ...
Well ...
this actually NOT much better than "We know you go on a trip and bring a suitcase of cash" ...
still a wonderful effect of "I see World in ONLY 2 Dimensions ..."
translated into : "IF i don't do it myself , it is worthless !"
or
i drove in those country , so i know ... behind a diesel Car
in reality the Race "24Hours of Le Mans" has been won by a diesel car which had an average speed of 216 Km/h (134+ Mph) despite its 32 stops at pit within 24 hours ...
so on such , you may be right ...
on a diesel car (considering the US speed limits) the only one thing you would see would be the fumes left behind ...!
Actually, it was Vern who adopted this slogan ... ...
sorry to contradict you ATM ...
Vern didn't adopt it ...
he just did it ! ;-)
Monsieur Shane :
So, DIRECT losses for your involvement in the Eclipse scam is $235,000, per Court records. ...
DON'T you get it ?
Kenny DID NOT loose this pocket-change ...
actually it was a trick to pay less tax ! ;-)
(while some others only move from one state to an other , but within the same country , how clever !!! )
Julius (guten Tag , alles klar ?)
Schade !!
you are not getting it ...
the EA500 is so much more spacious ...
this is the reason why luggages are cramped in the back of seats on photo provided ...
a new concept of G.A. =
would you prefer to fly with your luggages OR with your invitee ?
;-)
from Ken:
"Then, why in the Hell do you insist on including supposed value depreciation in your own calculation of DOC?"
I have never done this, I nclude all YOUR costs associated with the plane DOC and otherwise, to make a point that your pinpoint fascination with fuel, is a silly way to justify this airplane.
YOur alter ego made the reference to DOC... I always say total cost to acquire and operate the plane all things considered.
There is a difference, and PT used the DOC including depreciation... trying to say your cost could be less than zero - -which, might make you feel better, but it ain't so.
Truth is most people prefer the Embraer interior to the EAC interior. Then again, its a silly comparison, because the E500 used to cost so much less when it was in production...
Anyhow, I think we all appreciate honesty and forthrightness, and most can smell a nit or obfuscation from FL300.
I am truly glad for you that you LOVE your plane and the idea that it cost you very little to purchase and fly... all things considered, it will probably cost you north of $2M when all is said and done and the plane is finished, and the fuel savings are relatively meaningless, when the true costs are considered, according to most people who look to buy jets.
PS. I'm going to now try to find a photo of a large person in an MRI machine...
HAve a great day- its going to be a busy one on the flightline, so back to shceduling and dispatching the lfight school students... some are preparing for check rides, so the washroom will need special attention from me today, too....
Let's also hope they employ professional management with a good understanding of the realities of the aviation market. ...
i have about the same wishes ...
unfortunately , it means E.A. is going to HAVE to charge very much north of $200.000 for each Ea500 ...
in this is already included a ZERO drop-out ...
otherwise it is going to be even more ...
or :
where fuel sipping is such an important parameter !!
;-)
"Yes, that's a "feature" known as a "stable IFR platform", when the manufacturer is unable to reduce the control forces of their flawed design."
Pilatus builds aerobatic training airplanes for what, thirteen or more countries?
More wisdon from Shane... An interesting line reaches the inbox this week. Ken has opponents in the EOG, who think his promotion of the M&M bid is the kiss of death.
You need an Inbox to know that Ken has his own opinions. Great sluething.
Gee, I didn't know that Ken's opinion carries so much weight in the grand scheme of things to foretell the success or failure of the EA business plan. You better watch out, he may use these miraculous powers to wish you to "disappear".
Shane gives us a math lesson...
Lost ConJet Deposit, $100,000
Second FPJ Deposit (also lost) $100,000
'Pre paid JetComplete', $35,000
Total $235,000.
This is what is known as "old math". All of this matters how? Thanks for waking up and rehashing Ken's finances. Post again when you find out how Ken takes his coffee.
What will happen when someone ACTUALLY BUYS them ad does something? You guys will fly your planes into each others houses? ...
i don't know about others ...
i will go to bed 'cause i'm not so sure to stand erected and so much laughing at same time ...
$20 Millions cash for a firm and its "intellectual properties" that was supposed to revolutionize transport and valuated hundreds of millions ...
ha...ha...ha...
"I'm happy to enlighten you that having to pass a jet type rating is an issue for some turboprop pilots;"
Hey, Ken, get over it! You are way to smug and arrogant for a 300 hour jet pilot with the ink still wet on your ATP certificate. Lets face it - in the real world, pilots are little more than glorified bus drivers. Just look at the economic value associated with a newly ATP rated pilot - if you are lucky enough to find a job, you can command a salary of perhaps $30,000 - $40,000, just barely enough to live on in today's world. Is flying fun and satisfying? Sure, but it is intended to be done by humans and a high per centage of the population can learn to do it, even to ATP standards.
WhatTheF said... You are way to smug and arrogant
Smugness and arrogance runs rampant around here...
Sorry I mentioned the PC-12 control forces. That pulled the control rods out of the reactor and we achieved criticality. I can feel the neutrons from here.
"Smugness and arrogance runs rampant around here..."
Well, you are the one calling the Pilatus PC-12 a "flawed design".
ASman said... Well, you are the one calling the Pilatus PC-12 a "flawed design".
No I didn't. That was a guilt trip that ColdWet decided to embark on.
"Yes, that's a "feature" known as a "stable IFR platform", when the manufacturer is unable to reduce the control forces of their flawed design."
PlaneTruth, The above is your post in response to WhyTech on August 17, 2009, at 6:44 pm
Yes, and where does it mention Pilatus or the PC-12???
"Well, you are the one calling the Pilatus PC-12 a "flawed design"."
Just to demonstrate some balanced thinking about the PC-12, I would also call the design flawed. But, this has nothing to do with control forces. My big complaint with the PC-12/45 and 12/47 is the antique avionics suite - in large part 1980's technology. This was corrected on the 12/47E (NG) and most (except Baron) will consider this a big improvement. I would have preferred Garmin or Collins to Honeywell, but the Honeywell Apex will do.
"I can feel the neutrons from here."
This always happens when Eclipse is in "fleece mode!"
Does the sudden vitriol from certain posters indicate trouble in M&M paradise? Are we witnessing the result fo panicky calls and emails seeking help to close the gap on the $15M needed in a couple days?
Maybe, maybe not, but if I had to guess, and in this case I do have to guess (not on the Christmas card list for this plan), I see some eerie similarities.
History repeats itself, or to quote Yogi Bera,'it's like deja vu all over again'.
The last time we saw this kind of rapid deterioration in post quality from certain posters was when RiP's Stalking Horse 363 was in trouble - the sudden shift from optimistic euphoria to downright lashing out depression, followed by a brief silence.
Let us hope I am wrong.
Whytech writes, "You are way to smug and arrogant for a 300 hour jet pilot with the ink still wet on your ATP certificate."
Gosh, I better be careful not to smudge that damn thing then. I worked too hard for it. Imagine, I had no idea the ink on FAA certificates doesn't dry in 21 months!
"in the real world, pilots are little more than glorified bus drivers."
Now there's a statement that says a lot about you. Unlike you, I have enormous respect for professional pilots and I do *not* think they are just glorified bus drivers.
If I might inquire, how long did it take for the ink to dry on your ATP?
:)
Ken
Based upon experience in other on-line blog /message board situations, I have a strong suspicion that major players in the original Eclipse 500 program and major players in the bid for the Eclipse assets in the BK court may be posting directly to this blog.
It would be interesting to know who is who...
That might help illuminate comments and expose motivation.
Kevin
"I have enormous respect for professional pilots and I do *not* think they are just glorified bus drivers."
I have enormous respect for *some* professional pilots and not so much for others. Like all other forms of human endeavor, there are highly skilled, quitely competent pilots, and there are those who talk better than they fly.
yes... once noticed some obvious comments when Pogo was rasigin money on Wall Street, from a new blogger here. He did not know much about planes/the business/even EAC. Once someone stated "you are probably a Wall Street underling involved with Pogo's offering, he disappeared.
Its fairly easy to see who has a dog in the hunt, and who does not - especially if you know the story about EAC and the EA50 mess from a long time ago.
In fact, there's a cool article in Flying from earlier this year, and one called of all things "The Plane Truth" from Inc magazine about Eclipse shennanigans way back when.
ATM said... He did not know much about planes/the business/even EAC.
Yes, we do get a lot of that here. Where is Shane by the way?
Fred,
bonjour - ca va!
Fred, i'm getting old and also looking at plans and not only at nice but suggestive pictures (something Ken never would present - for sure or...!)!
Some people believe they should be PR manager for EA(C) - but there are no fpj for sale with a price north of $1.5M which could attract a customer.
AVIO NG 1.5 with Garmins will be something with high risk: Who will change some code? Ken is looking for an update to fly in FL 410!
M&M will do it - but only after a lot of capacity building!
Julius
P.S.: The hearing will take place on the 20th or...?
ATM said... In fact, there's a cool article in Flying from earlier this year, and one called of all things "The Plane Truth" from Inc magazine about Eclipse
This year? Try June 2002. Are you stuck in a time warp. Sorry to nit-pic, but that one's not even close. About as accurate as your accounting lessons.
"Yes, and where does it mention Pilatus or the PC-12???"
Well, since the ongoing discussion was about the PC-12 and Eclipse were you refering to the Eclipse as the "flawed design"? Perhaps the aileron control forces on a B-52? Enlighten us!
Julius said... AVIO NG 1.5 with Garmins will be something with high risk: Who will change some code? Ken is looking for an update to fly in FL 410!
Julius, get up to date. The service bulletin for 1.5 upgrades was approved 3Q last year. It's already done. No development required.
ASman said... Well, since the ongoing discussion was about the PC-12 and Eclipse were you refering to the Eclipse as the "flawed design"? Perhaps the aileron control forces on a B-52? Enlighten us!
You guys crack me up. You can dish it out, but you sure can't take it. So much talk about nothing important.
"Based upon experience in other on-line blog /message board situations, I have a strong suspicion that major players in the original Eclipse 500 program and major players in the bid for the Eclipse assets in the BK court may be posting directly to this blog.
It would be interesting to know who is who...
That might help illuminate comments and expose motivation.
Kevin"
Kevin, I'm not sure how long you have followed the blog but I believe a lot of these posts are probably from Ken and his various alter egos. He shilled for EAC during their glory days and probably enticed a few people to join in the misery that was called EAC.
In my opinion, the people who helped perpetuate the Ponzi scheme are just as guilty as those who benefited. They "aided and abetted" the furtherance of the Scheme! Some of these people were careless dupes, some had ulterior motives, and some were profiting from the promotions. At this stage of the game you need to see what category the EAC-faithful blog posters fall into in order to decode their motives; some are STILL careless dupes, some STILL have ulterior motives, and some are STILL trying to profit.
PlaneTruth says 'so much talk about nothing important' so I will repost some questions from several days ago which have gone unanswered:
So let's get down to the brass tacks and skip the repetitive and pathetic attempts at character assasination. It adds nothing to the discussion and is getting distracting.
These are the questions that should already be answered, since we are about to see a couple tens of millions of dollars change hands.
How much will Avio NG 1.5 cost from NewCo?
How much will the new tire STC cost from NewCo (if someone doesn't beat them to it first)? And of course that will only matter to the operators who are not already putting unapproved tires on their planes (and it is happening).
How much will the repetitive flowcoating for FIKI cost from NewCo? Are replacement transparencies available to replace the windshields that are slowly pitted/crazed by the flowcoating process? How much will they cost from NewCo?
How much, if anything, is NewCo asking each owner to pony up to help them actually come up with the rest of the $20M and to cover the $20M in notes?
How much, if anything, is NewCo asking to help fund operations until they can become profitable based on expected service revenues?
How many engineers will NewCo have? What specialities will they represent?
How many critical vendors have said 'not no but hell no'? or are TU or about to be TU?
Are replacement vendors already identified and ready to contract for current spares needs as well as for the 'future' restart of production?
Is NewCo asking prepayment for their fixes?
What will service cost from NewCo?
Let's chew on that rather than each other for a few posts and see if we can learn anything productive."
Plane Truth,
RiP never said, that the Avio NG 1.5 update includes a FADEC update for the Pratts allowing them to fly in FL410 - that is the point!
When was AVI NG 1.5 accepted by FAA? Just after /with the partial EASA cert - 4th quarter 2008 or 2008-11-21?
The SB for the upgrade to AVIO NG 1.5 plus FIKI is of 2009 (source Ken or Kathy!).
Julius
Real planes said, "It would be interesting to know who is who...
That might help illuminate comments and expose motivation.
Kevin"
I completely agree. The strong comments of folks like Airtaximan and Bubba could likely be put into a reasonable context if it became clear who they really are and what ax they're really grinding.
Therefore, I predict neither will step forward and follow your advice.
Ken Meyer
OMG, this is classic, beyond words even.
I wonder if Plane Truth, Turn and Burn, Turbine Pilot, RonRoe, OMSIV and the like will take up Kevin's challenge as well?
We have been over this subject ad nauseum, some want anonymity, some want to post as different folks (many different folks occasionally) to create the illusion of a larger base of support for their agenda.
Frankly it becomes pretty obvious after a while as to who might be who, and what their interest/agenda is. I thought we were past the whole ugly and crass behavior of 'outing' folks desiring anonymity.
Anyone care for a discussion on the technical, regulatory, programmatic or economic challenges ahead for EA-500 Operators or M&M if they actually close on this deal?
Anyone?
Anyone?
Bueller....
The bloggers here have frequently demonstrated remarkable aviation insight.
But, in general, the quality of insults, especially recently, has been remarkably low. Which just leads to more of the same, and a dangerously high toxicity level. Not good for the blog when it sometimes looks like the alt.flame newsgroup.
Clearly, a better class of insult is needed around here. I will venture a few, based on long time observation of the blog, and it’s predecessors.
From my long time reading of Gadfly’s prose, I can confidently make the allegation that he is a Sagacious Sexagenarian.
And WhyTech? You’re clearly an Erudite Entrepreneur. Please don’t try to be anything different.
CWMOR is evidently a Pragmatic Futurist, regardless of what others may claim.
ATM is assiduously analytical in almost everything he writes. I don’t know how he gets away with it.
Baron95 has nothing to offer but sanguine and cogent epiphanies, and is apparently a flaming heterosexual.
Ken Meyer is, by his own admission, a sworn Hippocratic, and an aerospace aficionado as well. Amazing that he uses his own name.
Shane Price? Let's not even get started about him. He’s clearly the audacious antecedent of this blog, for which he must be held accountable.
Oh . . . and Fred? Your savoir faire is showing!
So there!!!
And, to be egalitarian, I must confess to suffering from superflous verbalism myself.
Now, the rest of you out there are doubtless worthy of the same type of faux insults, if I had time to write them. Some of you probably even practice philately.
Now that we’ve all been “told off” . . . can we get back to a reasonable, rational, and civil discussion of aviation?
Bueller here...
CW, I think you better ask easier questions... reality is, there are no answers on the table for most anything you have repeatedly asked.
All I can say is, if there's such a terrif network of shops keeping 85% of the birds in the air as reported here, then why bother spending anything on the assets. Seems like good'ol GA will find a way to support these planes, anyway.
Can the plane be produced and sold at a profit? I think we know the answer to this...
Ask about fuel flow... insurance cost, interior comfort... paint schemes... cleaning service costs...
no skinds...
touche... and how dare you!
Julius ...
Fred, i'm getting old and also looking at plans and not only at nice but suggestive pictures ...
NO , you're getting old ...
i would venture to say "Some kind of wiser" !
i think that i wrote it before :
since truth does not exist , let's try to look at any problem with many different point-of-view and angle ...
if the majority of them show the same result going into the same direction :
IT MUST MEAN SOMETHING ! ;-)
ATM :
Can the plane be produced and sold at a profit? I think we know the answer to this... ...
you actually miss one way to end the story ...
a way that would coincide with the shill ...
lets say :
M&M know very well that the plot can't be made to work (meaning producing a single $ of profit) ...
Assets are bought , planes are upgraded for almost free ...
the Firm NewCo. will follow the same path than EAC , meaning only a few realities and a lot of promises ...
after a year (or any time a BK-court doesn't see a matter in it ) the Thing collapse , leaving behind the same unpaid-bills than EAC ...
(here i have a doubt : so much is quite difficult to reach ...)
Bills which are going to be paid BOTH by community and the Now-creditors ...
this is ONLY a "small" detail as what is the REALLY important point :
Give enough time for some "Bishop of the Flyantolgy" to actually lure some gullible into buying their Aft presenting this new event (NewCo.) as a new start for EA500 !
so you see , that would be an other very good reason for the recent voicing , apart from the desperate need to have someone injecting the $15 Millions needed ...
Maybe we should start a new thread and just make it for predictions of the outcome of Thursday the 20th and say the following two weeks, two months and two years.
Anyone game?
Noskiding . . . I resemble your remarks! Except the part about being a sexy genarian! Actually I’m a Septuagenarian (although my birthday is in October).
All seriousness aside, you’ve used more multi-cylinder words that all the rest of us, put together.
gadfly
(Your blogs could become a habit!)
Oh . . . and Fred? Your savoir faire is showing! ...
should i take this as good or bad ?
just drop it : i don't give a damn ...
you know when you get ride of unnecessary item like :
Nationalism
foolish pride
politics
hierarchy
political correctness
life can actually be quite sweet !!
so please be my guest , say whatever you want ...
No Skidoo ...
"Video Meliora proboque deteriora sequor" ...
sorry , it's latin ...
if you have any problem about it : Ask Baron , he has been driving in Italy once or twice , so he should have no problem knowing the meaning ...!
;-)
ColdWet :
Very good idea !
i am ready to bet any quantity of your best beverage ...
my guess(which is 2 questions) :
How can you scam a scam ? and if you can do : is that legal ? (stealing a thief is not really a theft , apart for the law ...)
kidding aside : same path as EAC ,"we tried ... but furnishers were so lousy ..."
in a nice wooden costume within a year ...! ;-)
How many engineers will NewCo have? What specialization will they represent? ...
Coldwet ...
EVEN someone like me can answer this question ...
A LOT OF THEM !
specialization : like EAC , ALL in Marketing Dep. !
Julius ...
i made an error ,entschuldigen !!
Please read "NO , you're NOT geting old !"
“One does not get old, One gets better . . . and I’m approaching Magnificant!”
gadfly
I have a strong suspicion that major players in the original Eclipse 500 program and major players in the bid for the Eclipse assets in the BK court may be posting directly to this blog. ...
real plane :
HOW can you dare stating that some are doing frenzy-propaganda here ?
;-)
for myself , i came to the story quite a long time ago ...
i had more or less the idea of buying a EA500...
mainly because i saw an Advert saying : Ea500 cheap , convenient , very easy to fly , bla bla ...
i contacted EAC , their way of making a deposit rung the "ALARM Bell" in my head ...
I contacted Col.M after , for making sure my first hunch ...
I asked a simple question " What is the Maximum distance that can be flown under European rules (No NBAA) with a single person on board "
the answer came as something like "read the Website or something very close ! "
so happy i was to be treated in such a light way from peoples i was going to give a million bucks to ...
i looked to find some "comments or reports" on internet ...
i found at that time "Monsieur Stan" excellent work !
(May his feet walk only on the most beautiful flowers for ever !)
CWMR,
good idea!
- August 20th (hearing): There will be an OK.
- September 4th (or about): Bid is paid.
- October 20th: Words/rumors of "new" partners/investors
- 2011 August 20th: M&M are not in charge of the newco(TU,Russia, China)
Do you expect this type of road map?
Julius
P.S.: What about Ken in in this context? Cardinal...
“One does not get old, One gets better . . . and I’m approaching Magnificant!” ...
Mr GadFly ...
DON'T BE TOO MODEST !
this was last year ...
now you are closing on perfection !
Fantastische Herr Julius, zehr gut das ist.
fred,
that's life...
Which financial potential are M&M presenting after te hearing?
Julius
CWMR,
my estimate is very positive and conservative, perhaps boring.
How much does it cost to reorganize the ABQ site...
What is really on stock, HR,....?
A rivercard from the very beginning for jetincomplete (and limited service)?
What are M&M's objectives for the rest of the year?
Julius
Ron,
Thank you..
Thak
you...
Thank
you....
Finally, some sense.
Now go back are re-read all the BS rosey posts from a-holes who would have yu think all is fine and dandy in EA-land...
Thank you, sir.
We need to move out of here into a better Forum engine and into a moderated format where Off-topic and gratuitous insulting gets deleted or moved into an off-topic folder.
This is the worst blog/forum engine on the internet and obviously Phil is not interested in moderating this or getting fresh posts up to move the discussion forward when it gets stuck in a rut.
Sad.
"Do you honestly believe that the O-360 engine on the 2009 Archer is the best technology that can be had? Do you really think pilots should be exposed to power loss due to carburetor icing on every approach to land? How many people a year die because of that?"
Again, nonsensical comments. First of all there is no such thing as 2009 Archer. I happen to have many, many hours on ~1975 Archer - fine airplane and never had any engine trouble. I don't know what was the last engine they put into it in 2007-2008. To zero in on just the carburetor icing as a cause of accidents is simply ridiculous. These are choice buyers make - there are plenty of fuel injected engines/airplanes on the market. Buyers are driven by cost and operation practicality and not by your self-righteous proclamations what technology should or should not exist.
Baron,
Do you have a theory on why this happened again, here?
Perhaps we can prevent the problem if we understand the cause?
Some have shined a light onthe timing of this barrage... and it mysteriously correspondes o past histrical events relating to our favorite aeroplane company.
I personally find it AMUSING - as when things get "hot", the lame attempts to discredit increase...
Just an observation, of a historical paten that been evident since say 2006...
Baron, I would ask... what technology did EAc actually use effectively to deliver on its promise of a $1million twin jet that will be easier to fly, more robust so as to transfor the transport system, and more economical to buy and operate?
I'll give you a hint...
The Internet - it used marketing to dupe unsuspecting buyers into the false promise of tech-low-cost-revolution.
Truth is, they failed dramatically, and way before anyone could make off with multiples of IPO stock money, which was the ultimate MO.
Sorry, this was a bad joke, based on tech-BS, from day-1.
ATM, I think it is the classic case where there is a little bit of news - EA as a "viable" bidder - followed by a vacuum that gets filled by wild comments and insults that are not moderated.
It would be nice if we could self moderate.
If we had a forum engine where multiple topics could be active, and not depend on Phils very low quality posts, we'd be fine.
We could have one active thread on the EA bid. One on the top AOG issues. One on other VLJ design. One on light fan-jets vs light TPs. One on macro economic issues affecting the industry. One on technology.
And we could have a a few 1/2 a dozen or so moderators. People like you, CW, Whytech, perhaps Shane/Julius for the EU time zone.
Tricky part would be for us all to move as group - or we will scatter and fail.
airtaximan said...
Baron, I would ask... what technology did EAc actually use effectively to deliver on its promise of a $1million twin jet that will be easier to fly
--------------------
They didn't use any technology effectively, unfortunately. Theis best single contribution was probably their use of full ECBs.
Fortunately, for anyone trying to do it "right", the technology and the model to emulate now exists.
The avionics and operating procedures for all new light jets should closely emulate the Phenom 100. The standard should be all normal ops procedures for light jets fit on a two-sided shirt pocket card or less, most systems (icing, electrical, environmental, etc) should require no pilot action for most ops.
Low cost, light, good SFC engines now exist from 900lbs to 3,000lbs+ with good competition at the low end.
EFBs are becoming quite good - so cockpit can be truly paperless.
Two more ingredients need to evolve.
One: We need to get one or two SEjs certified (FAA/EASA) to remove that risk.
Two: We need the FAA/EASA to relax and/or remove TR from sub 6,000 lbs fan-jets and have clear rules for the certification of SEJs.
I think we will have "one" in the next 5 years, and "two" about 5-10 years after that.
But ignoring those items, I think the stage is set for someone to jump in and do what Eclipse set out to do 11 years ago - and do it right.
I think having EA (or some other entity) upgrading the EA500 and supporting them effectively is an important component. It will give buyers confidence in new jet designs AND set up a low price book-end on the personal jet market for now.
Therefore I am rooting for that to happen.
BARON,
yes...
yes...
yes...
yes...
nice one!
well, I was reading UP the list, and the "Yes" went to the nearest to the bottom. I completely disagree with your idea of chopping up the blog, and I see you understand the risk of that as well.
All the issues you cite relate to EAC, and therefore, chopping it into tiny pieces would make it difficult to follow the problems/successes.
Say MM are "successful" and somehow overcome the inertia that is GA, ond provide BETTER service at MORE affordable prices than the industry - this has an overall affect on the fleet, and the real Cost of Ownership.
I like the integrated apraoch, where the Ken's cannot hide behind fuel burn for their real cost, or even the purchase price as their real cost.
Yes, Boeing is an interesting discussion as well. But, how is that related to GA (BBJ, aside)? It reveals the difficulty even a large business has, but in fact, EAC should have had an advantage over Boeing. EAC had the years of learning, and had the opportunity to provide for a purpose built plant/company, and company to support the "revolutionary 1000 per year" low cost twin jet that would change transprt forever.
Proble, IMO, is the screwed the pooch on the design.
Yes, Kens like it... OK, but this was an unintended accident.
It was supposed to be a transortation revolt-craft. It failed.
Back to your point, before I have to go clean toilets again (those check rides really kill me)... keep the blog open, and keep the comments coming... and thanks for the truth in commentary on when and why this turns ugly.
PS. It has never turned ugly before expected news had a good result.
GAd say there will never be 1 finished comliant EA50 to spec... I say, there will never be one which you canreasonably justify on cost. Never. After all is said an done, the deposits lost, the fleecing on service and upgrades, MRO for low time planes and depreciation, it will be a joke on GA that anyone spent time and effort let alone hard earned money on this catastrophe - -no matter how much anoone admires the iterior, fliability, fun or fuel sipping characteristics of this plane.
If anyone is serious about changing to a true 'forum' - this is a decent option.
Let’s turn the clock back a few years . . . and suppose that some small group had put together a chief designer, and a small crew of skilled/dedicated craftsmen, with the chief stated goal of producing a “fun to fly” small jet, to introduce “prop pilots” to the world of fan jets. Could that have been accomplished? Sure . . . but isn’t that what Eclipse attempted? Not really. Eclipse bit off too much, and essentially was driven by the ego of a single person, or a very few persons.
Now what! Engines now exist that are both reliable, and “cheap” enough, to provide all the power requirements of a small jet. Vern did something that was inexcusable at the time, but can be viewed as an advantage, should someone who is truly qualified pick up the pieces . . . No, correct that: Begin anew . . . with a small (almost) all aluminum, rivet construction, single engine two place jet, using a combination “all glass” and “steam gage” instruments, everything available “off the shelf”, slight swept wing configuration . . . limited altitude, . . . keep the 1,000 mile range . . . and an extendible fuselage . . . with a most friendly “power off” glide range.
New technology? . . . Hardly! All this (except for the glass cockpit) is within the range of what was known and in use when Lockheed (under Kelly Johnson) produced the P80 “Shooting Star” . . . in the 1940's. Concerned about fuel economy? . . . Get over it. Even a good car costs more than five times the fuel bill for ten years of ownership.
Gather the right team, and a legitimate company could be put together, tomorrow, and roll out the first fully tested single engine, “VLJ”, affordable two to four place entry level jet, . . . and have a few dozen happy customers before my 75th birthday.
Let Boeing and others learn the hard lessons that they think are so simple . . . and by the time they recognize their “wrong” assumptions, it could be that the first of a family of truly practical “VLJ’s” will be flying while the likes of Boeing is looking for a major bailout with taxpayer funds . . . or rather, another major loan from the “Chi-Coms”!
gadfly
(Baron . . . you last comments came as I was composing this comment . . . and I went back and changed some things. You’re on the right track!)
(Taximan . . . the original promise was broken the very day that the first "Eclipse" fluttered around the mountains of New Mexico . . . and the little jet became the "obese" jet . . . gaining over a thousand pounds. So, that prediction was the easiest prophetical utterance I have ever made . . . Eclipse guaranteed it from the "get-go".)
Gad, but while some were paying attention, others.... were paying deposit oney....
"Therefore, I predict neither will step forward and follow your advice."
Ken, Just FYI. Kevin knows who I am. He has my name, home address, and phone number. He is aware that my only motive is to steer people away from what I consider to be an unsafe aircraft.
My experience with The Wedge and Capt. Zoom go all the way back to their days together in Tulsa during the late 70s and early 80s! While I didn't know Zoom I did know Wedge and I NEVER thought him capable of making the E500 as success!
Taximan . . . using some multi-cylinder words, had the hypothetical group been what they should have been, they would have not accepted deposits until they had a proven aircraft ready on the tarmac, with a set of keys for the new owner. Eclipse may have had all the right elements in theory, but they scrambled the order, and made off with the deposits from escrow . . . and ignorant depositors didn't have the "smarts" or knowledge . . . or something was missing in their understanding . . . and "Eclipse" essentially took something that was not theirs to take. Right then and there, the depositors had enough information to make a case, and get back their money, but for whatever reason, they all stood around waiting for someone else to make the first move. Or something like that! I certainly don't know the answers, but that's about what took place.
At the first smell of dead fish, the best thing is to immediately find the source, and don't let up until the thing is properly addressed. Or maybe people will get used to the smell, and think that that is "normal".
gadfly
there are some folks here who know who I am as well, and I can assure you of ne thing... it would make no difference to you -- but it would make a big difference to some.
So I remain your faithful flight school dispatcher, and toilet washer.... make of me what you will, I do not care.
PS. this logic, where you need to know one's name in order to evaluate their remarks, is about as good as using fuel cost savings as the calculation for aircraft ownership and operatng cost - or aircraft vlaue for that matter. Example: Deep Throat.
Was he right? YES
Did he have good insight? YES
Did anyone know who he was? NO
Concentrate on the "litle" things, and you'll miss the really BIG important ones -
Hi Orville - I'm in favor of going to that option. Do you have a link to a forum that is up and running using that setup for us to take a look?
Thanks.
Plain Truth,
Post again when you find out how Ken takes his coffee.
Get with the program, please.
Everyone knows that Ken never drinks coffee.
Only Vern's (later Roel's and now M&M's) 'special brew' Kool Aid....
Sadly, and like the staff at EAC, Ken's discovered that the 'Kool Aid' which started out free has more recently become very, very expensive at the 'Eclipse Cafe'.
Shane
Yes, Ron... I stand corrected on both counts.
Except, I do not think, and never have said they could maintain their AC indefinately, either... just that as of today GA inginuity has taken care of the issues regarding maintenance, and I suspect, there's a path without spending needlessly on "Assets" that would continue to provide support.
Is there a particular "risk" item I am not aware of, whereby the "assets" of EAC are needed, in order to continue airworthiness?
I think you know a lot more than I do about all this... enlighten us please...
Thanks for the corrections. I really appreciate it.
BAck to the washroom, seems a few checkriders are blowing chunks, scared out of their minds about the checkrides!!!! Must have read Ken's post. Thanks Ken... you've provided me with a whole new meaning to "con"-trails....
Ron,
yes...
find a code for:
"I am happy with my EA50 purchse - it only cost me $1.1M, it sips fuel and is fun to fly - there's no better value out there"
(I suggest SHILL-007)
Also,
Find one which you can apply to your posts:
"I have nothing of substance to add to this discussion"
(I suggest CATCH-22)
knot, I fear there's never been a better post than your recent one...
thanks. BRILLIANT!
"Not all orders must be met this quarter or even this year. How does Pilatus, Britten Norman and Piaggio get away with ignoring demand?"
Their planes are so good... period... people are willing to wait, and they match production with risk ov over production so they hold value.
Vern found 200-300 people willing to blow their wallets on multiple deposits in HOPES they would make money on them, as traded paper. Plus one BIG guy who believed he could out BORROW and out fleece, even VErn with a taxi model.
Problem was, they had no real demand, either of them, and both their models were based on the "promise" of mass demand.
GONG!
You my friend, are correct!
"Phil:"
could you please explain to the Blog how the economics of a Google blog site work.
Who is getting paid here? How much?
Regards.
While all of you clowns are picking on Ken the 'tard, and Ken and company are proclaiming what a wonderfull future the FPJ is/was/will be, and N85SM wanders around the airspace of the USA/Mexico, the truth is that without any difficulty at all, you can get yourself a nearjet (CJ1, Mustang) for around 2mm with a very few pre-owned hours on it, or even step up to a real single pilot rocket like my Beech Premier for probably less than EAC Newco will want to charge for a FPJetIncomplete fiasco. Grow up everyone (shane, you too) and let Ken figure a way out of his box all by himself...
Deep Blue,
In my case, I am being paid precisely what my posts are worth.
KnotMPH said...Dot Com fantasies had huge overhead
-------------------
What .com fantasies are you referring to? Google - market cap $140B? eBay - market cap $27B? Yahoo - market cap $21B? Priceline - market cap $6B? eTrade - market cap $2B?
Or were you simply surprised that the vast majority of .com start ups failed, just like the vast majority of all start ups?
What happened with the .com was nothing different than what happened with other new startup cycles. It simply happened in greater numbers.
Do US GA startups have a better track record than .com? Of all US GA plane startups since the beginning of the .com boom (1997) how many have survived? Oh yes - zero. 100% failure rate.
As for .com, it generated several companies with market caps greater than any pure play GA manufacturer.
Personal GA is an industry in decay. Customers are dying and not being replaced. Companies are dieing and not being replaced. Technology has died and is awaiting burial.
KnotMPH and ATM said...
airtaximan said...
knot, I fear there's never been a better post than your recent one...
thanks. BRILLIANT!
Not all orders must be met this quarter or even this year. How does Pilatus, Britten Norman and Piaggio get away with ignoring demand?
Their planes are so good... period... people are willing to wait, and they match production with risk ov over production so they hold value.
====================
You guys have got to be kidding. You think Pilatus is a success story?
The private investor group Unaxis or something like that that held the company and related acquisitions, unloaded them in 2000 (IIRC) to another private investment group.
That group told everyone they'd turn the company around and take it public in short order. Even during the greatest BizAv boom in history, they never managed to be profitable and therefore never managed to go public.
Make no mistake. Pilatus is simply limping along as a business.
AND it is kept afloat by the military side of the house. Even the PC-12 sells as a maritime and surveillance platform to the likes of the US Gvmt.
Pilatus would be LONG DEAD if it depended on their civilian GA market.
You guys like to romanticize every other plane to prove the Eclipse is a dud.
SOCATA would be long dead if it depended solely on making profits from the 35 TBMs it sells per year as well.
These are NOT civilian GA success stories. There is NO PURE PLAY civilian GA success story.
NONE. NADA. Not a single independent civilian GA AIRPLANE company that is consistently profitable.
The industry is bankrupt.
(P.S. I'm separating the corporate aviation side of Biz Av from GA as most people do - though there are obvious overlaps).
Ron<
I DO have a problem... just took my meds, back on earth... so please, disregard whatever irked you and explain:
"Is there a particular "risk" item I am not aware of, whereby the "assets" of EAC are needed, in order to continue airworthiness?"
This is of real interest, buddy boy... go for it....
INstead of poking at me... provide the answer to the above, which YOU brought up - enlighten the blog, please.
Thanks
"There is NO PURE PLAY civilian GA success story."
Repeat after me: "ROBINSON HELICOPTER"
Baron, you must admit, the flair with which Vern engineered the positioning of the company, the PR, the media and the BS, resulting in WORLD CLASS cash incineration reminiscent of the ODT COM phenominonon, compared to your average $25M here $100M there incineration normally associated with GA...
Also , please help me with Ron Roe...he seems to want to dismiss my questions, so perhaps yee of esteem and little consequence can ask a question or tow, because RR seems to know something, important, for us all...
What's up with the ea50 that REQUIRES someone to buy the asstes of EAC in order to provide continued airworthiness.... which cannot be provided by the GA shops already working the issues....
THIS will be a revelation... thanks
Back to drinking, doing drugs, dispatching flight school students, cleaning toilets and little else....
I just looked up...
So to be clear - ALL the assets of Pilatus - all factories, TCs, parts, IP, etc.... was according to the link below sold in 2000 (hight of the boom) for .... drum roll....$250 Swiss Francs.
I don't know what the exchange rate was back then, but that was prob like $150M-$200M.
That is a rounding error on the valuation of a .com company and a mere 10x what the scraps of Adam fetched.
Really successful for the investors. Nice business. Want to invest?
Oooops link...
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/archive.html?siteSect=883&sid=610152&ty=st
Nice try WhyTech. You cut the only sentence where I forgot to say AIRPLANE (I even put in caps for you on the other sentence), and we already covered the distress at Robinson, right?
"Even the PC-12 sells as a maritime and surveillance platform to the likes of the US Gvmt."
Its called the U-28A and is operated by the USAF as a special ops acft.
"The U-28A utility aircraft provides intra-theater support for special operations forces. The U-28A is the Air Force variant of the Pilatus PC-12 and was selected for its versatile performance characteristics and ability to operate from short and unimproved runway surfaces. The U-28A is also certified to land on dirt and grass strips. The aircraft is equipped with weather radar and a suite of advanced communications and navigation gear"
The USAF has been buying used PC-12's in the open market (via defense contractors) and converting them because Pilatus cannot supply them fast enough due to their order backlog. Mine was purchased by a contractor at a price above that of a new one. I am told that these are being flown off the roads of Iraq, but cant independently confirm this.
BAron,
your definition of success in GA, may not apply. I've been trying to tell you this, but you are stuck on it.
GA is a different animal... probably not something you should invest in... but its not alone.
There are MANY capital intensive industries with long development cycles...
If you want to consider EAC somewhat of a success (which you have tried to do), then Pilatus is the GOLD standard, as is Piaggio.
None of these companies is BK, and none of the burned hundreds of clients, and noe of them burned $2-$3B.
Nice try though.
Hey Get ROn Roe to explain to us all, how MM will have the fleet by the balls.... ooopps!
"where I forgot to say AIRPLANE"
You are a slow learner but getting better. What civilian acft manufacturer isnt in distress right now? You said "success story." Robinson has come from zero to be the largest (unit volume) civilian helicopter manuf in the world. How do you spell success?
GettingReady2FileSuit says, "[While Ken's plane] N85SM wanders around the airspace of the USA/Mexico, the truth is that without any difficulty at all, you can get yourself a nearjet (CJ1, Mustang) for around 2mm with a very few pre-owned hours on it"
I'm sitting back enjoying the sudden spate of comments on the blog, but this one merits attention--it goes straight to the crux of the matter.
First, let's all note that choosing the moniker, "getting ready to file suit," tells us what an obvious slant this writer has.
But more importantly, what he writes is baloney.
Used Mustangs haven't yet hit the $2 million bracket, and they cost about 40% more per mile to fly than the Eclipse.
And you can't buy a CJ1 or CJ1+ for $2 million. What about an old CitationJet? Well, you'd have to go back at least 10 years and 2000 hours to pick up an old CitationJet for $2 million. And if you did, Conklin & deDecker report that it would cost the new owner nearly twice the per mile cost of the Eclipse 500.
The whole idea of the Eclipse 500 is fast, fun, reliable, safe, affordable jet transport. Yeah, you can find an old jet about the same amount upfront as what a brand new Eclipse 500 will be priced at--brother, I looked! But it will eat you alive in maintenance and fuel costs. You will never find an old jet with anywhere near the reliability and low cost per mile as the Eclipse 500.
Ken
Pilatus and Piaggio build airplanes for the military as do Cessna and Hawker Beech and Dassault of course. I don't know of any reasonably large GA manufacturer who is only making airplanes for the civilian market. Maybe nearly-bankrupt Piper, but they have made military and government planes in the past.
"Used Mustangs haven't yet hit the $2 million bracket"
Well, ... maybe yes and maybe no. Depends on what you mean by "$2 million bracket." If you mean $2.0 million, maybe not. If you mean substantially $2 million, then maybe yes. There are two on Controller right now with asks between $2.2mm and $2.395mm. Some sharp negotiating might buy these in the $2.0 to $2.15mm range. Wont be long now before they are in the "$1 million bracket."
WhyTech said... Wont be long now before they are in the "$1 million bracket."
ATM, what's that work out in loss of value per hour, or mile??? That's about a $1.5M loss in about a year (soon according to WhyTech). A Mustang that costs more per hour than an Eclipse? What's the world coming to?
"The USAF has been buying used PC-12's in the open market (via defense contractors) and converting them because Pilatus cannot supply them fast enough due to their order backlog. Mine was purchased by a contractor at a price above that of a new one. I am told that these are being flown off the roads of Iraq, but cant independently confirm this."
I can absolutely confirm this. Two years ago "Air America" had quietly purchased more than 30 used PC12 for clandestine operations.
WhyTech said... Wont be long now before they are in the "$1 million bracket."
Think what this will do Eclipse prices - $100K bracket!
WhyTech writes, "Think what this will do Eclipse prices"
Might be better to look at what Eclipse prices are actually *doing*. They're rising. Pretty fast at that, unlike much of the industry.
Reducing the uncertainty of future support has had a remarkable effect on used Eclipse pricing.
Ken
WhyTech said... Think what this will do Eclipse prices - $100K bracket!
The that's only a $1M loss for an Eclipse, a Mustang according to you will have lost $1.5M. Which is more? Come on, you know the answer. You can say it.
"Reducing the uncertainty of future support"
Huh? When did this happen? How did I miss this?
Long way to go before the uncertainty is reduced, boys!
"a remarkable effect on used Eclipse pricing."
So, Ken, how can you tell? Virtually the same airplane is listed with asks from $850K to $1.8mm. How abou adding some value to the blog and posting half a dozen recent ACTUAL selling prices (not ask price)?
WhyTech,
Don't you know it's true if you post it here on the blog.
* There is now no uncertainty over Eclipse Aviation/Aerospace! Really!!! Please, please believe me...
* Eclipse 500s are appreciating, not depreciating! Pay no attention to the fact that S/N 60 is up for sale on Controller.com for $850,000. That's a typo--it's supposed to be listed at $8.5 million. Really!!! Please, please believe me...
* There are rainbows painted across the sky everywhere you look! Note: Eclipse critics need special rose-colored glasses to see them. These glasses cost $1.1 million a pair, or at least that's what B/CA says the price is. For an extra $250,000, you can upgrade them to v1.5.
I could go on and on, but you get the idea.
"you get the idea."
Got it!
Whytech asked, "So, Ken, how can you tell? "
Easy. I've been looking at buying another.
Ken
ATM, if you'd like I can cut and paste the response from RonRoe and repost it so that you see it this time.
"I've been looking at buying another."
I see. Parts acft no doubt. Those things parted out have got to be worth far more than a flying acft.
WhyTech says, "I see. Parts acft no doubt."
Hardly. The parts chain is just reopening; that would be an unwise purchase at this juncture.
No, I thought the planes were depressed below their intrinsic value and wanted to cash in on that. Regrettably, it turns out I waited too long.
Ken
"Regrettably, it turns out I waited too long."
My bet: you'll have many more opportunities.
You know, I’d plumb forgot about our buggy whip division . . . and all the hazards we used to face. They say there’s nothing quite as ticklish on a country road as a horse with a buggy behind.
gadfly
(And as kids, my cousin and I had our own version of “snowball fights”, what with an abundance of horses and a total lack of snow. ‘Seems like some of the bloggers may have similar skills, if only verbally.)
"I'll buy my dog food the old fashioned way and invest in a device that automatically removes the food when the dog is "done with it.""
So, how much investment can M&M put you down for Eclipse Aerospace, then? ;-)
New "headline post" is up !!
(Finally- sorry for the delay!)
Post a Comment